Toudiyama[NL]

Seems you do not know anything about the Kyokushin World Championship, , not ever did a MT fighter get trough, no matter waht you think this can be traced

As for the semicontact, that was the sarcasm , MT people just don't feel like entering a semi/non contact tournament, neither do Karateka want to enter a full contact tournament
And that's my point, why would you enter a tournament which you do not prepare for? And why if we choose not to enter is it because we are flawed and if I then say MT people don't enter non contact tournaments because of lack of control it is BS, both claims have no validity

As for you only being disqualified because of jealousy, come on man, if you hit too hard, than that's reason for disqualification
but then again I do not know how it works in the states can only speak for my neck of the woods

sorry for the bad spelling in my post but the T of my keyboard at home seems to have some problems

BTW for the others:
Gerard Gordeau is a Kyokushin karateka, I haven't the faintest why he was called a Savate player, since he wasn't an active player in Savate anymore at the time, whereas he was and still is an active Kyokushin Karateka/teacher
But maybe that's the reason why we don't see any Karateka, if that trained for a short while in something else, they are being put foreward as such

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chris davis 200

I would pick Muay Thai and BJJ from a street figthing viewpoint - then - if you are going to disparage other arts - just cause you have ABSOLUTELY no understanding of them!

Reasoning for my choice -

MT fighters are tough but if faced with Multiple opponents would very quickly be overcome due to their 2 dimensional training. They would also probably have broken fists due to the fact that they usually fight in heavily padded gloves! If rushed by heavily set guys and wrestled, MT would be defeated with apparant ease - its ring suppiriority wont convert to street defence. It has no weapon defence, No defence to its back, no multiple attack stratergy.

BJJ - again very 2 dimensional in its training style and figting theories - 'my opponent (singular) is there i will take him out with chokes and lock that tie up my arms for a number of seconds - it takes far less than a second to be stamped on or stabbed.

My reason for chooseing these two is that they have created a wholey false view that if you dont train in these styles you will not be very effective in fighting.
This view may be fairly applicable to certain SPORT fighting formats, but regarding street fighting they are not any more effective than other arts. some you have mentioned above!

I am talking street here cause that is what really matters to me - to fight someone in a ring or a cage means little if you then step out of the ring and fight a thug with the same rules that you do in the ring. I can Garauntee he wont fight to your rules! especially if he is armed!

MTF you really have a beef with anything but MT - it is quite funny!! have you been beaten by another style and feel you need to defend yourself with shite threads?

Chris

Great Sage

MuayThaiFighter,
Your threads are really getting monotonous... And you seem to be asking all the wrong questions as a martial artist. However useless some styles maybe, there may or may not be some element that has been overlooked, but you won’t know until you’ve actually tried it.

I do agree with you that Muay Thai can be lethal in certain street fights... That is a scuffle between you and another person that is semi-confrontational. I’ve used a MT kick to convince a would-be attacker to change his mind. And I don’t think the average TKD person has the necessary skills or training to do the same. But that’s purely my opinion based on experience.

I don’t agree with Chris, but I respect his opinions...

Yes, I agree... But any martial artist is out of his element once he engages opponents outside of the gym. A few exceptions are combat training gyms that specialize in simulating real fights with real scenarios. Also, few people (if not, hardly anyone) can effectively deal with multiple attackers or weapons, etc... But I wouldn’t say a MT fighter would be easily defeated in a street brawl... I’ve seen three TKD guys get beaten by one MT guy in a sparring match, which doesn’t say much in the scheme of real fighting, but it illustrates how resourceful and powerful a MT fighter can be.

Again, it’s all about judgement... If a BJJ sees someone holding a knife, I doubt his initial reaction is to use a triangle... In the event that the knife is hidden, well... then no one is really safe.

I agree with you in some regards, but I think most MA are the same, not just MT or BJJ. As I mentioned before, training in the gym is NOT real fighting. I’ve been to kung-fu gyms that say that their styles are only effective in the streets... I don’t quite buy that because of conditioning, methodology and mental awareness. “Hungry Tiger Catches Goat” will not stop anyone. A MT guy has the conditioning and mental toughness/awareness, but maybe not methods for street fighting... If there’s a weopon, everyone should reach for a weapon of their own and it doesn’t matter what style you know.

Agreed...

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The sage experiences without abstraction,
And accomplishes without action;
He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
Nurtures them, but does not own them,
And lives, but does not dwell.

foolsknight362

I know that this was said earlier, but you are trying to compare apples to oranges. You cannot say that a specific art is "good" merely because one practitioner took it to the top in a competition. Competition's are useless, because they have rules! Street fighting and self defense do not have rules, they are a completely different story.

As for the art is concerned, it depends on the practitioner to develop his/her art. I agree with the previous thread that stated the weakness's of both MT and BJJ, they were valid points. But a practitioner who has trained all of his/her life in MT, as compared to some thug who has been in a few brawls with his buddies, the MT guy has the upper hand. Same with an MT practioner who goes to a few classes a month, and eats Easy Mac everyday when he comes home; as compared to a thug who has lived on the streets his whole life. The middle class teenager would get waylaid.

You have to look at the basics of what makes a martial artist good. Power and experience are useful. But so are technique, speed, agility, and mental and physical toughness. Like I said, it depends on the artist.

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You may stand in victory or you may lay in defeat. Either way, never forget your honor.

Maz

MT or boxing mixed with some sort of groundwork such as BJJ, wrestling, russian sambo, japanese jiu-jitsu/wrestling seems to be the most effective. I'd have to give extra props to MT as an effective form of fighting, ever watched Silva in Pride fight? That guy is a hell of a fighter, I'd hate to face him in a street fight or in the arena.

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Hoy!

IPON

BTW for the others:
Gerard Gordeau is a Kyokushin karateka, I haven't the faintest why he was called a Savate player, since he wasn't an active player in Savate anymore at the time, whereas he was and still is an active Kyokushin Karateka/teacher


Toudiyama[NL]: I know that in the UFC I he was labeled as a Savate fighter and that all they talked about was his style of Savate.....for what its worth

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A person who is said to be proficient in the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing, he thinks of nothing else and thus becomes proficient. - Hagarkure

Toudiyama[NL]

Which shows my point, UFC wants to play down karate as much as possible, only when poeple don't have a change are they all of a sudden Karate or Kungfu practitioners, if they are good, it is because of one of the other arts practiced
Savate in it's haydays( which was before UFC1) was practiced 1x a week 1-1.5 hours
Kyokushin he did every day except for sundays

All the dutch MT/KB pioneers started doing it because they wanted an other way to compete, not a new way of doing things
Rob Kaman was Pentjak Silat before he started , Fred Royers was and stayed Wado Karate ( one of the few to be able to do very good at both)

Kyokushin, Seido, Enshin, Ashihara, Kyokushin Budokai and Int Oyama Karate are examples of fighting based styles
To say that these are worthless shows a lack of insight into karate in general and these styles in particular

The dutch Pioneers were able to do good in savate because of the fact that they did do both traditional and modern arts(MT/KB)
( kicks have to be chambered or as we call it made from the knee)


darn what chaotic posting have I done

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sercuerdas

the best art for the street is escrima. no nonsense direct and lethal.

RollPlayer

I had to say American Kickboxing. AKB is a far cry from Muay Thai Kickboxing. Besides, every year at the California Karate Championships the AKB teams get their aaaaasssssseesss whooped. No joke. They cannot compete. AKB is entirely designed for sport competition and has no realistic value for self-defense.

Nick

Although Karate has its flaws (leaves itself open when punching is one example), if the person trains hard, they become a good fighter. Mas Oyama is a prime example. He beat people of all different styles.

Later...

MuayThaiFighter

Do you not mean he beat people of other karate styles? I don't remember hearing about Mas Oyama fighting against any other martial arts outside of karate.

I don't think he ever fought a MuayThai kickboxer, if he did he probably lost.

Toudiyama[NL]

In a promotional tour of the United States Mas Oyama took on all challengers, beating most within the first minute and many with a single punch.

All but one of Oyama's students got beat when they had to fight the Thai wearing gloves
Kurosaki was the onlyone to win, under thai rules

Your knowledge of the "Hardcore "Karatestyles like Kyokushin, Seido, Ashihara, Enshin and Oyama Karate is null and void and still you talk about them as if they would not be able to fight

Do a google on Sabaki Challenge and see how their fights go
A lot of times the matches of these style do not even have a weightclass

Nick:

only if you puch the same way as in basics, will you leave yourself open, but during sparing the oppositeside will protect the head
even in WKF (f.k.a. WUKO) otherwise you will be kicked to the head
The fact that there is no contact doesn't make it less neccesary to protect the head, a high kick usualy scores a full point (a reverse punch usualy a half point) so that makes it important
even more if competing using the JKA rules (one point only) because a good high kick will finish the game

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c0bra

Francisco Filho's style is karate and hes a kickass k-1 fighter

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*poof!*

swagman

Useless style must be Origami

their defence is paper thin !!!!

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may the road rise to greet you

Thai Bri

I have one of those Sabaaki Challenges on video. In all honesty it looks crap. How can you measure the effectiveness of a striking art without hand strikes to the head?