koto_ryu

And for the record, Bas Rutten himself claims most of his success with his karate skills than his training in MT.

__________________
KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

Tom Yum

Actually, I mix the old school with the new stuff.

To get myself back into shape, I go with the old school. Miles and miles of running, tons of calisthenics and sparring till I puke.

Once I start to plateau, I add weight training routines + plyos + intervals and maybe some 1 on 1 work with instructor.

MuayThaiFighter

[quote=EmptyneSs]mabye, but either way u put it ive been training for over a year in boxing and mt, spar many rounds a week with many diffent people, and this was his first time at our school and he sparred a few different people and did great with the standup skills he learned in his training in karate. werever he trained before wasnt a shitty mcdojo.

Training for only little more then a year is not really that long,I have done Muay Thai 7yrs.

If his school wasn't a shitty mcdojo,perhaps yours is.

u dont know that

Karate can't beat Muay Thai,well very rarely anyways.

that aint true, thats just some peoples egos. some schools train very realisticly in different arts and systems, and arent mcdojos.

Okay so I exaggerated a bit but in general most schools don't train realisticaly.Many schools have black belts that end up getting beaten up in a real situation.

Any school that has hundreds of black belts is most likely a mcdojo.So many black belts usually means the instructor basically just gives belts away.TKD schools are a good example of that since after only two years you can recieve a black belt and are then considered a master,that's ridiculous don't you think?

this is true, but there are also many people out there who train in other arts besides those u mentioned who train realistic and train very hard and take their training seriously.

I'm not in disagreement with this.Many people may be serious about training but that doesn't mean their style is very serious about self-defense or street-defense.

koto_ryu

But that's cool, since ninjutsu pwns all and everything It's the person in the fight, not the tools they're fighting with, that ultimately wins. The only reason MT does better than the average karateka is because they train for ring competition, whereas most karateka don't. That's why they call them combat sports. A good boxer/grappler/freestyle wrestler/san shou/whatever would be a tough fight for a MTer as they too would be in good to excellent condition. Techniques can win fights, but if the technique is similar, it all comes down to who's stronger, faster, and can go for longer.

Getting a black belt in the Bujinkan just means you're finally learning '

Then you should see how MT isn't perfect for self-defense or street-defense then.

__________________
KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

EmptyneSs

i train at http://www.akakickbox.com/

MuayThaiFighter

[quote=koto_ryu]But that's cool, since ninjutsu pwns all and everything It's the person in the fight, not the tools they're fighting with, that ultimately wins. The only reason MT does better than the average karateka is because they train for ring competition, whereas most karateka don't. That's why they call them combat sports. A good boxer/grappler/freestyle wrestler/san shou/whatever would be a tough fight for a MTer as they too would be in good to excellent condition. Techniques can win fights, but if the technique is similar, it all comes down to who's stronger, faster, and can go for longer.

I disagree I personally think both are important the fight in the person and the tools.It's the right tools that puts the fight in a person who does martial arts.If you are missinformed then what you learn will be pointless.

That's true we do train for ring competitions.I agree that is part of the reason because when you fight in a ring you are fighting in a closed in area which could be the case in a real situation.

I think for a boxer,grappler,free style wrestling and san shou it wouldn't be easy to say who would or wouldn't win against a Muay Thai fighter because they're all good arts,after all they all train specifically for street-defense.To say one would win against MT. makes no sense since they're all good.

I don't think if it's about similar techniques but more like same experience in these martial arts then it comes down to who is faster,tougher,and better shape,I personally don't think strength has anything to do with it.

Getting a black belt in the Bujinkan just means you're finally learning '

Getting a black belt in Goju Ryu means same thing as far as levels is considered other then that a black belt is just something that holds your uniform together,doesn't mean you're a good fighter.I've seen blue belts be able to beat up black belts.

Then you should see how MT isn't perfect for self-defense or street-defense then.

Did I ever say MT was perfect? I don't think I did.I said it was best art for STAND UP fighting not necessarily best for over all fighting.Muay Thai is limited in the sense that it has no grappling other then stand up wrestling.To me a perfect martial arts is one that combines Muay Thai with grappling as far as unarmed self-defense and street defense is concerned.

For the stand up part of a real situation I would say pure MT is perfect for street-defense but not for grappling,to have a perfect martial arts you have to take something like Pankration,Shoot Fighting,JKD etc.

I value your opinion,it's always nice to hear what other people have to say whether you agree with them or not.Unfortunately some people take me the wrong way and get pissed off for my reason of disliking arts like karate,tkd,kung fu,tai chi and for giving what is just my opinion and from what comes of my 19yrs.experience in martial arts.

MuayThaiFighter

Now I'm confused,what exactly are we disagreeing for if we both do exact same arts?,from what I see on this site you guys do both Muay Thai and Grappling just like at my school.

http://www.geocities.com/asoka_mano/SokesBullDog my school.

Now school where I trained at http://www.gibsonpankration.com

Tom Yum

I think he was saying that some karate fighters are effective.

Its true. In one of the K-1 exhibition matches, a team of kyokushin guys beat a team of Muay thai fighters.

Allthough Muaythai really emphasizes fighting, so do a few other styles.

Garland

You don't need to tell me what muay thai guys do.
I've trained with the best in the states for muay thai. I might not have as many fights under my belt as you, but please...don't patronize me.

__________________
homo homini lupus

Garland

This may be true for your buddy, and some others, but muay thai has the EXACT same punching techniques as western boxing. In fact, the reason some muay thai guys don't punch as hard is beacuse they train their punches to simply set up the other techniques they work. This may not be true in all cases, because muay thai practitioners focus on different things based on their own attributes and strengths, as well as whatever their camps teach.

In Thailand, it is not uncommon for many muay thai guys to make a transition into normal boxing and flourish, due to the fact that in the west, they can make more money boxing. Also many muay thai fighters will go to near-by western boxing gyms to scout methods of training for their hand work, if their particular camp specifies in other things.

__________________
homo homini lupus

Garland

"The only reason MT does better than the average karateka is because they train for ring competition, whereas most karateka don't. That's why they call them combat sports."

I agree completely, most karateka train for killing clouds, or breaking things for construction sites, or perhaps really inticate orchestra conducting.
the only karate systems that could even possibly be considered for serious shit is kyokushin or shotokan, and whatever branch systems run off of these.
Kyokushin is the best bet for a good fight, though, and their guys are some of the only people in the MA community who can beat Muay Thai guys in a stand up fight.

__________________
homo homini lupus

koto_ryu

Not if you're like me and you own some of the rarer gems like Dempsey's "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense". There's shit in there that most boxers today never even come close to applying, much less MT practitioners. MT has the same powder-puff boxing that a lot of amateur boxers use, in my opinion.

__________________
KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

Garland

So there's a movie out there that makes you a better boxer than most amatuer fighters???
Damn, man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?
Boxing is fucking boxing, kicking is kicking, there are only so many ways to articulate the human frame, and there are only so many ways to shift your body, modern boxing is very scientific and very adaptive and extremely well thought out. Dempsey was a great fighter...in his day, but he couldn't do shit against modern Olympians.
Training methods get better with time, I'm not saying to completely discount the old, but, mine, you needs to get with the times, cuz shit gets better with age, just ask any sommolier.

__________________
homo homini lupus

koto_ryu

Considering it's a book, that makes you sound pretty stupid :P I can't recall any instructional videos even coming close to the date where Dempsey kicked the bucket, much less was in his prime. And considering the majority of boxers I talk to today wouldn't know a shovel hook from their right nut, I'd say it offers a lot more than you might think.

Here's a little excerpt on why Dempsey wrote this book:

"At any rate, I came to the conclusion that "self-defense" is being taught wrong nearly everywhere, for the following reasons:

1. Beginners are not grounded in the four principles methods of putting the body weight in fast motion: (a) FALLING STEP (b) LEG SPRING (c) SHOULDER WHIRL (d) UPWARD SURGE.

2. The extremely important POWERLINE in punching seems to have been forgotten.

3. The wholesale failure of instructors and trainers to appreciate the close cooperation necessary between the POWERLINE and WEIGHT-MOTION results generally in IMPURE PUNCHING - weak hitting.

4. Explosive straight punching has almost become a lost art because instructors place so much "emphasis on shoulder whirl" that beginners are taught wrongfully to punch straight "without stepping" whenever possible.

5. Failure to teach the FALLING STEP (TRIGGER STEP) for straight punching has resulted in the "Left Jab" being used generally as a light, auxiliary weapon for making opening and "setting up," instead of as a "stunning blow."

6. Beginners are not shown the difference between SHOVEL HOOKS and UPPERCUTS.

7. Beginners are not warned that taking "long steps" with hooks open those hooks into "swings"

8. The BOB-WEAVE rarely is explained properly.

9. Necessity for the THREE KNUCKLE LANDING is never pointed out.

10. It is my personal belief that "beginners should be taught all types of punches before being instructed in defensive moves", for nearly every defensive move should be accompanied by a simultaneous or delayed counterpunch. You MUST know how to punch and you must have punching confidence before you can learn aggresive defense."

You definitely need to read more about him then. You do realize he knocked Jess Willard down seven times in the first round alone, breaking his cheekbones, eye socket, nose, jaw, and ribs (with gloves, might I add), and that the only person to beat him trained for six long years to stop him, only managing to win as he took advantage of the rules of the time that Dempsey wasn't familiar of (the long eight-count, you might read about it)? Something to consider.

__________________
KOTO RYU



My favorite neg rep points earned so far:
"ofeensive and inconsequent young man, should be banned!!" - Xebsball

Jeremy Lobdell

Koto-ryu, If you've got a copy of Dempsey's book, guard it with your life. I've been looking for a reasonable priced one for years. The cheapest I can ever find it is for $250. If you've got any sources for finding a less expensive copy, please let me know.

__________________
"If you want to learn to fight, you must practice fighting against someone who is fighting back!" Burton Richardson