BoarSpear

interesting link here as well as another link discussing the problems this may present in the near future...

Mike Brewer

I have seen these guys before. For reasons I don't want to go too far into (mostly because some of it is rumor), I simply won't deal with them. I will say that the first time they popped up on my radar, it was not related to anyone I knew in martial arts. I learned about them through a class I took down at Hurlbert Field. Let me cross check, and I'll be back with some details...

kerambit

Hi there,

I'm very interested in the Silat Mubai people. Are they a defacto doctrine outlet for the AQ? BTW, I'm the guy who wrote the original article on them.

To me, training knowledge is separate from beliefs. Some of the best stuff out there right now comes from muslim extremists or at least extreme muslims. But that doesn't mean I like islam.

Mike Brewer

kerambit,
I only marginally agree that knowledge and beliefs are separate. It may be philosophically true, but when you start paying people who use that money against my countrymen, you become as much the enemy as they are. Besides, the fact is, most of what militant islamists are doing is borrowed from all manner of other cultures and militaries. Che Guevara had as much to do with the tactics used by guerrillas in Iraq as Osama Bin Laden does. What exactly do you mean by "some of the best stuff" coming from extreme muslims? What "stuff?"

BoarSpear

amen Mike...if you are a source of income to my enemies, YOU are my enemy and likely to be attacked............. cutting supply lines is simply good strategy.
if you give them money and they use it to train others to attack you, whose side are you supporting? would you sell oil to enemies of your country during a conflict? supply them with weapons or training? or money?

i mean for instance...where did the Nazi's get thier oil? who sold it to them during the second world war? (anyone want to comment?) surely no one we would consider to be a friend to our nation right? those who support your enemies become your enemy by thier actions.

kerambit

By "Stuff" I'm referring to modern combatives synthesis arts out of the myriad SE asian styles.

If because of blinders of one kind or another, you're not making yourself aware of what this stuff is, and you're in some kind of protective capacity, then you're not doing your job as thoroughly as you can. Know your enemy.

I agree about not giving money to the enemy. That's why I've been against dependence on Saudi oil for 20 years. There is no single greater champion of terrorism than the house of Saud, and the vast sums of money they donate to Al Qaeda and other terrorist networks come largely from the United States.

BoarSpear

By all means get as close to your enemy as possible...know his tactics and strategy...just remember the triads of today in china started out as good guys fighting an oppressive govt...but after several generations of rubbing elbows with the underground they became a part of the problem...its all to easy to become a pawn of your enemies while engaged in spying upon his activities...

Mike Brewer

You know, this may be a little off topic, but I'm going to throw it in here anyway. Oil. A natural resource we've (like it or don't) come to depend on. Some say we shouldn't buy it, but then our entire industrial infrastructure collapses and we plummet into the dark ages again. Some say we shouldn't fight wars over the stuff, but it's the only option we have, outside buying it. We shouldn't drill for it on our own soil, because owls and caribou and little builly goats wouldn't have homes. Dammit people! What options are you giving us? Israel moved out of the Gaza strip. Anyone know why they were there in the first place? Because the Gaza strip borders the largest source of fresh water in the region. They settled there because of water. They fought a war over a natural resource, and they just gave it up for politics and some kind of hope for peace. Personally, I think BoarSpear is right when he said that the pullout fuels a terrorist flame. it gives justification to the bombers and artillery strikes when terrorists scream "See? It worked! Israel is gone from Gaza!" What would happen if we simply walked away from Middle Eastern oil? You should be able to clearly see from history that extremists have an ever changing agenda. They have no underlying cause, except the absolute destruction of all things outside their own tiny pocket of reality. Like the Nazis. Propaganda is how they sell it to suporters, but never ever confuse the facts with the fiction. The terrorists who fight in the name of Allah are no different than the Nazis who sought to create a master race. It's just that the modern version is an Islamist Radical and not a Scandanavian Viking. Kerambit, have you ever seen the training your radical muslim extremists undergo? Have you really looked into the techniques they're training? It's no synthesis. It's mere toughening and brainwashing. If you want that kind of combat effectiveness, here's what you do. You devote yourself entirely to someone else's set of principles and ideals. You sacrifice everything you have, including your life, to his whim. Never mind that he himself doesn't embody these principles and ideals he preaches. Never mind that he won't strap a bomb on his own chest or kamikaze his own damn jet liner. He says it's important that you do it for him. Meanwhile he gets richer (yes, in the end, it's still about the money. Why do you think they so actively seek financial backing? You didn't think they spent it all on special bomber vests, did you?) and you get mopped up with a sponge from some marketplace or bazzaar in the middle of a dustbowl town.

I do not think that this war is anything like Vietnam. Boar, I understand why you see things the way you do, but let me clarify my points here. In vietnam, we lost roughly 58,000 soldiers over about a decade. They were drafted, many involuntarily sent off to war. In three years in Iraq AND Afghanistan, we have lost fewer men than in most given single months in Vietnam. And none of the soldiers there were drafted into service. The vast majority knows full well why they fight, and they choose to be there. Hell, a lot of the guys I worked with begged to go, and then begged to stay when their turn was up. This is not the sixties. The only thing about this war that's similar to the Vietnam War is the fact that some confused Americans refuse to support their troops. Last night, Bill Maher put Anderson Cooper on the spot trying to get him to bad mouth President Bush and the "lies" he told to invade Iraq. Cooper replied that for four previous administrations, the President and cabinet all felt that Saddam had WMD. Since Clinton largely killed off the nation's intelligence budget and squashed most of the HUMINT practices our intelligence agencies had, we had no on site intelligence to confirm or deny the WMD theory. What we had was a murderous tyrannical dictator who routinely snubbed his nose at the UN, the USA, and each and every policy, mandate, resolution, and measure intended to gain hard information and facts regarding weapons stockpiles.

It's my own humble opinion that Americans have become such sensationalists that they cannot see that losing 2,000 soldiers out of the 300,000 that have rotated into the war zone is, statistically, a completely acceptable loss. Nearly 20 times that many people die each year in car crashes. Nearly 100 times that many die of tobbacco related illness. At least that many Americans die each month in this country as a result of simple household accidents. And at risk of beating a dead horse, one and a half times that many died over the course of an hour one Tuesday in September of 2001. Lest we forget the casualties our enemies caused us here at home, and lest we fail to stand up to the bully and give them permission to do it again. Ifeel the pain of losing soldiers. I know what it's like to look into a mother or wife's eyes as the NCO or Officer says over a folded flag "On behalf of the President of the United States, and on behalf of a grateful nation..." But guys, soldiers fight. Soldiers go to war. If you're going to pick up a protest sign over that, then I'd hope you'd recognize the hypocrisy in not also picking up a sign and protesting cars or cigarettes or slippery bathtubs and stepladders in the home. Death is a part of life. For a soldier who fights and dies in a war meant to liberate an oppressed people, at least death has meaning. What does the death of a child hit by a drunk driver mean? What about the emphysema patient who refused to quit smoking after the first of several lung tumors was removed? What has his death earned? We like to have a cause bigger than ourselves. People who can't or won't go fight in the wars over there are usually eager to pick up the protest and create their own wars over here. But rarely do they ever pick up the fight where it matters most. With themselves. How many gallons of Middle East oil does Greenpeace buy every year? How many war protestors have given their hard earned money to developing alternative fuels and converting factories so that they can run off them? How many people watch Disney movies not knowing that it's the Bin Laden family in Saudi that handles all of Disney's distribution in the Middle East? Or that they also handle the distribution for Pepsi, Volkswagen, Porsche, and half a dozen other companies from the US? How many people really realize how much their daily lives depends on this monstrous global economy we've all helped to create? When it comes down to it, you'll find any number of political motives and shady side deals in any situation at all. Sure, Haliburton got multi million dollar cleanup and aid contracts. Maybe that's shady, or maybe it's because the vice president is able to pull some strings with his former company and make things happen faster than if they'd tried to use someone else. Is it any shadier for another business to make the money? What if dealing with a third party contractor had taken longer to negotiate? Is that any fairer to the people dying while waiting for aid? I guess all I'm trying to say is that what matters most are the guys and gals on the ground. Screw the political motives. So what if soldiers were sent to Iraq for oil if what comes out of it is a free Iraq? I just think we citizens need to do a lot better job of picking our own fights before we criticize everyone else's.

And to answer your question, Boar, there's never a time for blame. Never. But there's always time for solutions. Cast your vote. Volunteer your time. Donate what you can, and make sure you're well informed enough not to put people you think will lead us astray in office. If you think the messages people are getting are wrong, then get your own message out. That's what discussion like these are all about, right? It's a much bigger country than when our forefathers coined the phrase, but it is still in fact "of the people, for the people, and by the people."

Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Thus endeth the sermon...

Mike

BoarSpear

NICE POST MIKE! i agree for the most part...My MAJOR complaint is HONESTY is GONE where our leaders are concerned...you cant trust any politician in this day and age...we all know the first thing to die in war is truth, however we are in one hell of a mess in this country today....no we didnt get here over night, but when is it gonna end? Maybe its time we told the truth let our skeletons out of the closet...fix our problems and move on...otherwise this is going to end very badly...those looters in N.O.are a sign of the mood of the people...people are tired of big business and our leaders courting each other at our expense.
sure it might suck to have to tell the people some of the things we have done to get to the top but if we want to stay on top we need the people to believe in and trust our leaders...the handwriting is on the wall, the younger generation believes all our leaders are crooks and we are fools for supporting them....i have a daughter who recently graduated from college, when her friends are over and we discuss the world, its not a very high opinion i hear from the younger generation..."If you adults are so smart why is this country going to hell in a hand basket" is the usual gist of thier reply. they often ask how we can believe the obvious lies we are told on a daily basis...
They have a point.

Mike Brewer

The trouble is, it will take people being willing to make sacrifices to get out of the hole. People will have to pay with time, money, effort, and sacrifice. They'll have to bear the burden of responsibility themselves. No longer will chants of "Our government failed us" suffice. It's a long and sometimes painful road, climbing out of the pit that we've dug for ourselves. But make no mistake...we did indeed dig it.

I just fear that people have come to expect too much from others, and not enough of themselves. I fear that we as a nation don't have what it takes to endure the necessary suffering. I fear that we'd rather have it handed to us than earn it.

So long as we fail to elect the right leaders - ones we can trust - and so long as we base our votes on what share of the country's profits we get to keep for ourselves, we will certainly keep trying to solve the problem by shoveling deeper.

Besides, I'd wager a friendly $10 right now, publicly, that when your daughter's friends are running things it will be exactly the same. Remember thinking what she and her friends thought when you were 20? Where'd it get us? Everyone is idealistic until they realize they can get a share of the pie for themselves...

BoarSpear

well my daughter grew up in christian private schools (as did her friends) she has spent almost a year in Haiti (on two occasions) doing missionary/aid work with her friends....they have been turned away from helping in thier own country by armed soldiers as she tearfully recounted...my dad is F.E.M.A we wont go into how pissed off he is at this moment...they all hate it when the family black sheep (guess who that would be ) is right, right about what you ask? i said this is what was going to happen the next time we had a major disaster in this country...in fact my exact words was it was going to look like Steven Kings the STAND...so far, i have been exactly right...
note day one N.O police armed with shotguns looted a office depot for computers and routers....whats up with that? there is/was no power...there was no need for that it was looting, and setting a VERY bad example...when the good guys are looting electronics why shouldnt i "loot" food and water?

Here is a link worth a read....note the fact that this area has a long record of govt and police misconduct ....like i have said we didnt get here over night...and we are only making more people question our motives with the current operations we are conducting.


"Across the region we have some of the worst poverty
in America, and most of that poverty has a black face.
Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana: these are states
that consistently, since the Civil War, have ranked
in the bottom five states in America for virtually
every social achievement, from education and infant
mortality to police corruption. Government, for many
of the region's poor, has had one of two faces:
corruption or overt neglect. New Orleans has had one
of the highest murder rates in the nation
for decades and a notoriously corrupt police force.
In our experience dealing with catastrophes and
epidemics overseas, there is a DIRECT correlation
between the historic relationship between government
and its people, and the willingness of the populace
to believe in and correctly respond to government
instructions. Of course tens of thousands of people
failed to evacuate: why believe the government this
time? And of course those folks who are slowly starving
and baking in New Orleans assume that government
has abandoned them.

http://palehorseman.blogspot.com/
as i have said over and over its bad leadership/ example setting...from those in charge....you cant lie to us about little stuff on a daily basis and then expect us to believe you when our lives and welfare are on the line....look what it took to get Clinton to admit to a bj....you really think we are going to get the truth about 911 or WMD or anything else that might endanger those in charges power?

BoarSpear

"In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George, the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot. On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott Bush.

Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over the Union Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, E. Roland `` Bunny '' Harriman, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Bush"

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

this is the least inflammatory link i could find about the Bush family and Nazi oil and finance...there are MANY more that outright claim treason ...at minimum this should have excluded this family from providing 2 presidents and 2 governers SO FAR. you know those skeletons i was talking about?
this is a good place to start looking...when your greed is responsible for contributing to the worst horrors this world has seen in the last 100 years...you probably shouldnt be running the worlds largest military, since you have a proven track record of putting making money ahead of your own country's welfare.

Mike Brewer

Did George W. Bush do that sort of thing or did his ancestors? I'm not saying you're wrong, but you have to be careful attributing the wrongs of one's family to a person that wasn't even born. Otherwise, you're as guilty of owning slaves as the great great great grandfathers you never met, and because of what they did, you're accountable no matter what your own actions, decisions, and motivations are today.

BoarSpear

Bush sr was 18 at the time...1942...thats hardly ancient history....and i believe some reparations for slavery have been called for...
the Bush family has NEVER even blinked...you know the old saying the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? Have you EVER seen a Bush admit a mistake?
If any of them had ever tried to be different you might could trust them but they are a typical political family (dont forget i live in fl we have a bush for gov as well as president )...BTW please dont try to tell this southern boy everyone has forgiven and forgotten slavery or the civil war and that was over in 1865 ....yeah i think someone who supported ADOLPH HITLER's Plans 63 years ago should have been exempt from his SON and grandson being our president.


For example, say you ran an orphanage and charles manson's son (although he doesnt actually have a son to my knowledge) showed up and asked for a job...would you hire him? i might have second thoughts about letting him mop the floors...much less RUN the orphanage....

somehow i think the leader of the free world ought to have a little cleaner pedigree than that. I am not out to bush bash...that was just ONE example of questionable behavior of our leaders....its not like the Bush's were the first two presidents of our country (a country founded on a belief in GOD) who slept in coffins full of dirt for a initiation into a secret society....after all the top echelon of the N.S.A and C.I.A are also boners...we absorbed many top nazi's into what became the C.I.A and gave jobs and immunity to the japanese scientists (monsters) from unit 741...

Are you aware Prescot Bush and fellow boners also robbed Geronimo's grave? and that the skull of the famous American indian is in the skull and bones society vault?
personally i wouldnt trust someone from a secret society that encouraged grave robbing and sleeping naked in a coffin full of dirt (even once) to watch my dog, much less my country.

remember how they told you in school that any of us could be president one day ? How many of you honestly still believe that? Perhaps IF you are born into a rich political family and dont mind sleeping in a coffin you can be president is closer to the truth. how can people that far seperated from the reality of the world the rest of us live in possibly understand the needs and expectations of the common man? they cant...thats why we have leaders shopping for new 1000 dollar pairs of shoes while americans die from lack of basic needs....

Mike you said you had already donated HALF your families savings to help out your fellow man....what have our rich leaders done?...they have dropped the ball thats what.

let me close by asking this...how is it when people found out the "king of pop" michael Jackson slept in an oxygen chamber at night it was a big scandal, yet when our presidents sleep in a coffin for an initation no one seems to mind?
Here is a link to the CBS website and an article/expose they did on the Skull and Bones Society...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in576332.shtml
note its a 60 minutes piece...these are not a bunch of wacky conspiracy nuts...
OOPS sorry turned this into a political rant ...sorry about that...it seems when religion and politics come up i cant shut up...probably because the unspoken rule is dont discuss these things...that in itself makes me wonder.

kerambit

Guys,

Please come and join us at selfdefenseforums.com... sorry to spam, but we're doing a little reconstruction of our own there after a big meltdown and I can tell you guys are thoughtful. Your input would be appreciated.