BoarSpear

i know this going to piss off alot of people (oh no another boarspear rant!) but i feel Katrina has proven we arent prepared at all...hurricanes come from across the water and hit the coast...and they do so on a schedule, jun 1st thru nov30th. we all watched katrina coming and knew it was going to do major damage on the gulf coast in a set 72 hour period...yet somehow 4 days later we still have not properly reponded to the many dying and injured people... why were the response teams not saddled up and waiting to rush in? isnt that thier job? oh i see Fema has had most of its resources converted to homeland security...oh i feel better now! this means if terrorist had bombed a random location around the country at any time we were prepared for THAT...but a hurricane that was forcasted and tracked to specific point at a certain location is beyond our abilities to deal with? I call bullshit...meanwhile politicians are dragging thier feet ending VACATIONS to deal with funding this disaster...WTF??? why arent resources set aside and waiting? this isnt the first or last hurricane to devestate an american city...instead new orleans has begun to look like a mad max movie...and now that relief is coming its in the form of soldiers coming to kill you for trying to get food or water (which the relief efforts havent/cant provide) police have turned in thier badges in droves...i guess they were not in police work because they liked to help people afterall. seems to me people need help now more than ever...but now its inconvenient to be a good guy this storm is pointing out some very critical issues in our country today...lets not let these deaths and horror go unaccounted for...failures of those charged with protecting our welfare are more common than successes these days....why is that?

Oraenor

Natural disasters is just natures way of birth control. Keep up the pollution, wars and neglect on nature and there will be more to come.One cannot neglect or be arrogant over nature as we are nature itself.The best prevention of these storms is to reduce the greenhouse emissions, less earthquakes means less bombing and underground nuke testings etc. These are just my opinions of the world today.

__________________
America's solution to birth control- "Lets start a war!"

Mike Brewer

First of all, hopes, wishes, and prayers be with the people suffering in the hurricane's aftermath right now. I truly hope our fellow Americans will make it through this time with as little suffering as possible. May those police, rescue workers, military etc. who have gone to help accomplish their mission with all possible speed. Their bravery is on a par with anyone who helped in the aftermath of 9-11, and they should be held in the highest esteem for their service.

Now, onto the part that may piss people off worse than your original post, Boar.

"We" are not prepared? Maybe. I personally think that this entire incident is a clear example of the new American tendancy of trying to fix the blame instead of the problem. It was a natural disaster. A storm that was violent and destructive - and very, very unfortunate. But here's the reality check, folks. Each of us is responsible for his/her own preparedness. I do not just mean in the case of natural disaster, but for any and all of life's challenges. Not long ago, people in that part of the states hunted the bayou for food. They knew how to voil water to purify it. They knew how to get up and walk out of town if needed and go to someplace safe. Guys and gals - it was a goddamned hurricane, not a ninja ambushing the Gulf coast in the night. We saw it coming for a week or more. Now people like Bill Maher are pointing fingers at President Bush for not doing something sooner. He just a few minutes ago said we should blame the federal government and the Bush "cronies" for the global warming that contributed to the strength of this storm. What?! Okay. Fine. Maybe the president was about as prepared as the rest of us. But where does the personal responsibility take effect? Does the mayor or the governor have any share of the blame? Do the victims themselves? Can we really accept the notion that because someone lives in poverty that they cannot leave when danger is imminent? Can we accept that it's okay that looters have become so violent that their criminal activities have actually diverted the rescuers from their duties in order to play crowd control cops? My solution to the problem is pretty damned simple. Get up. Quit making excuses. Leave the disaster area. If you are too lazy, too fat, too ill prepared to use the legs God gave you to carry you elsewhere, then sit there and suffer through whatever you must, but recognize that it is a personal choice. If it were me, I would put my kids on my back, load my wounded family members on a small canoe or raft or air mattress, and I would carry/push/swim them someplace where it was safer. I would not stay in a riot zone, and I wouldn't camp out on my roof, unless that was indeed the safest place I had to go. I would take this fanny pack of mine with medicine and water purifiers and other survival gear, and I would go survive - and I'd take my family with me. I for one am as prepared as I can be. So are those close to me. Why? Because we chose to be. We learned how to live through crises without stealing or robbing or killing others for their possessions. I can make fire in a mud puddle if I have to, and I can make clean water from raw sewage using little more than a plastic baggie or a water bottle. I can hunt. I can fish. And I can keep calm in a crisis. I know all this because I have done it, before I had to, and sometimes when circumstances dictated.

I don't mention all that to sound "holier than thou" sitting here comfortably in my living room while my countrymen are dying. I mention it to illustrate that different choices could have been made. Different choices can still be made. Hell, Bill Maher and HIS cronies could shut the hell up about how little everyone else is doing and contribute some of their quarter-million dollar an episode paychecks to the relief fund. They could load their finger pointing asses on a seaplane and go down and fill sandbags or hand out food. But they choose otherwise. They choose to blame. They choose to play armchair quarterback and try to undermine any efforts that have already occurred (they still think that no one responded in the immediate aftermath. Of course people showed up to help. It may not have been enough people, but people were there. Strangely, these talk-show problem solvers weren't among them any more than the national guardsmen they criticize). Me? The argument could be made that I have just made myself guilty of the same armchair quarterbacking. But I have already sent half of my savings to the charities that are helping out. I'm shipping out a few cases of MRE's to the food relief organizations. And I am keeping a promise to a national guardsman who left for New Orleans to look after his family while he's gone. It's not much, but it's something. I also plan to put together a list of common tasks, preparations, and survival methods people can use either to prepare for disasters like this one, or to use now that they're in the middle of the problem.

In the end, however, I can only hope against the current stream of anger and political jockeying that we would all recognize that nothing can now be done to prevent this disaster. Right now, we should all focus on the problems that face us, and not on who is to blame. We should structure things to be ready for what may come in the future, and we damned sure ought to stand together with those who have it harder than we do at the moment. There are lessons to be learned here. They cannot and will not be learned through finger pointing, unless those fingers point inward.

For what it's worth,

Mike

SamuraiGuy

We'll cmon guys, the relief is there, they just dont want to give it... havent you ever heard that Kanye west guy..

George bush doesnt care about black people..... ROFL...

We all know Fidel Castro does though.. hes offered to help....

What are your thoughts on that... and why hasnt bush taken it yet?... I mean if he really cares about the american people.

__________________
"a few User CP's that are pretty significant ones(like a BoarSpear or SamuraiGuy one). " - GracieHunter

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I'll knee you in the face like your name was Josh Koschek -- Me

BoarSpear

check this qoute out .................."While the city's human population suffered enormously, its famous Audubon Zoo managed to take good care of its charges. Only three of its 1,400 animals died, officials said, adding that they had planned for years for a catastrophic storm."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050905/ts_nm/katrina_dc

its a shame when the people whose job is to protect the humans cant do thier jobs as well as those tasked with running a ZOO...

Are people ready to admit its TIME FOR A CHANGE?

we are still at war on two fronts...and experts predict 3 more hurricane strikes to the U.S mainland this year...

it seems ever since sept 11 of 2001 the bush administration has been saying "now is not the time to question or assign blame"
When IS the time? how many more americans have to DIE before its the right time to question the motives and abilities of those tasked with running our nation?
Where is the vice president during these tough times?
We havent heard from him ...HOWEVER it seems Halliburton has already been awarded 3 contracts to clean up after katrina...exactly whose interests do you suppose come first? certainly not the average american...
those running this country are not going to voluntarily change thier ways...
Why would they? Condoleeza rice went out shopping at ferragamos for thousand dollar shoes while americans died from lack of food water and medicine...if thats not criminal its at least immoral, sick and disgusting.

BoarSpear

WTF!!!
http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D8CDN1TG1.html

this is getting worse and worse by the second...first the story was police were fired upon by looters...now it seems those shot and killed by the POLICE were repair crews!

surprise surprise the story has changed...http://freeinternetpress.com/modules...ticle&sid=4441

"Interestingly, this second Associated Press article on this shooting incident fails to mention the error in its first bulletin on this, nor does it offer any explanation for getting it completely wrong in the initial article that moved on the wire. Free Internet Press apologizes for any confusion this may have caused our readers. I hate it when these things happen."

Attached Images

 

BoarSpear

September 02, 2005

Troops begin combat operations in New Orleans

By Joseph R. Chenelly
Times staff writer

NEW ORLEANS — Combat operations are underway on the streets “to take this city back” in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

“This place is going to look like Little Somalia,” Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, commander of the Louisiana National Guard’s Joint Task Force told Army Times Friday as hundreds of armed troops under his charge prepared to launch a massive citywide security mission from a staging area outside the Louisiana Superdome. “We’re going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control.”

Jones said the military first needs to establish security throughout the city. Military and police officials have said there are several large areas of the city are in a full state of anarchy.

Dozens of military trucks and up-armored Humvees left the staging area just after 11 a.m. Friday, while hundreds more troops arrived at the same staging area in the city via Black Hawk and Chinook helicopters.

“We’re here to do whatever they need us to do,” Sgt. 1st Class Ron Dixon, of the Oklahoma National Guard’s 1345th Transportation Company. “We packed to stay as long as it takes.”

While some fight the insurgency in the city, other carry on with rescue and evacuation operations. Helicopters are still pulling hundreds of stranded people from rooftops of flooded homes.

Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and police helicopters filled the city sky Friday morning. Most had armed soldiers manning the doors. According to Petty Officer 3rd Class Jeremy Grishamn, a spokesman for the amphibious assault ship Bataan, the vessel kept its helicopters at sea Thursday night after several military helicopters reported being shot at from the ground.

Numerous soldiers also told Army Times that they have been shot at by armed civilians in New Orleans. Spokesmen for the Joint Task Force Headquarters at the Superdome were unaware of any servicemen being wounded in the streets, although one soldier is recovering from a gunshot wound sustained during a struggle with a civilian in the dome Wednesday night.

“I never thought that at a National Guardsman I would be shot at by other Americans,” said Spc. Philip Baccus of the 527th Engineer Battalion. “And I never thought I’d have to carry a rifle when on a hurricane relief mission. This is a disgrace.”

Spc. Cliff Ferguson of the 527th Engineer Battalion pointed out that he knows there are plenty of decent people in New Orleans, but he said it is hard to stay motivated considering the circumstances.

“This is making a lot of us think about not reenlisting.” Ferguson said. “You have to think about whether it is worth risking your neck for someone who will turn around and shoot at you. We didn’t come here to fight a war. We came here to help.”

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...25-1077495.php

HMMM this is a link from ARMY TIMES....


Isnt using the united states military for COMBAT applications on united states citizens a violation of our CONSTITUTION!!!!???

here is the act...have these conditions been met?

................................ NO!!!..................................................




The Posse Comitatus act allows ONLY for deployment of
troops in the United States for law enforcement if it
is allowed in the Constitution OR if an act of
congress is passed.

Here is the text of relevant acts:

20 Stat. L., 145

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the
support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June
thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for
other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it
shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of
the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise,
for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such
cases and under such circumstances as such employment
of said force may be expressly authorized by the
Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money
appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of
the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops
in violation of this section And any person willfully
violating the provisions of this section shall be
deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction
thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten
thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two
years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by
military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such
regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any
activity (including the provision of any equipment or
facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel)
under this chapter does not include or permit direct
participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air
Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest,
or other similar activity unless participation in such
activity by such member is otherwise authorized by
law.

18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse
comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances
expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the
Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

The only exemption has to do with
nuclear materials (18 U.S.C. 831 (e)

There is no action in the Constitution that allows
for this. No act of congress has been passed.

Mike Brewer

National Guard doesn't qualify under Posse Comitatus in this case. The purpose of the National Guard is to guard the nation, and it falls under the jurisdiction of the individual states and not the Department of Defense, Dept. of the Army, etc. National Guard and Air National Guard were created specifically so that states would have standing militias to respond to disasters without violating the Posse Comitatus Act. State Governors, not the Dept of the Army or the Dept of Defense, are the approving authority for the deployment of National Guard resources, for budgeting these units out of State taxes and government grants, and even for buying their equipment from government and civilian suppliers. Mayors can request troops from the governor, but he will approve or deny the request, not the federal government. In other words, If a governor chooses to send his national guard resources to support the war effort in Iraq, he can do so. If he chooses to send his guard resources in support of a hurricane clean-up, he can do that too.

And as much as I agree with your sentiments that we as a nation (as well as those in charge of the areas) should have been better prepared, I also agree with using whatever force is necessary to keep criminals (that's what looters are, especially when they resort to shooting at cops and soldiers who are there to help) from ravaging an already crippled city even worse. And I don't give a dry spit for those who say they're only stealing for food and water, either. There are better ways.make a fire and boil some water, for Christ's sake! How would you feel a year from now having to look back and say "I killed another victim who was hungry and thirsty just like me so I could take his food and water." ? It's how we handle ourselves in the tough times, not the easy times, that defines us.

BoarSpear

the natl gaurd may not be a violation of PC, but the 7000 or so regular army now deployed there do count...keep in mind also this is the very semantics i am talking about...its like the natl gaurd are the front line "combat" troops and the regular army is there to act as support them....sort of like REMF's of the past...they are supporting combat ops...that makes them the supply line...that makes them part of the action, period...call them advisors support whatever...they are in fact regular military supporting combat ops against criminal activity...there is too much going on in this country that hides behind legalese and smoke and mirrors...two wrongs do not make a right as the old saying goes...

check this qoute
"Inge said the Marines and Army soldiers will concentrate on providing humanitarian assistance to Katrina victims. But asked whether they could perform tasks like crowd control and site protection, Inge said, "That's correct. Probably not too much crowd control because you run the edge of law enforcement there."

so we will only violate the constitution a little? and only when necessary and convienent? or maybe just when no one will notice? this is my very point...BAD LEADERSHIP and dishonesty are everyday occurences or in simple terms its just business as usual.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...tary_role_dc_2

BoarSpear

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/we...l?pagewanted=1
interesting read here ...accounts of the 1927 floods in the same areas and govt reaction then vs now...

then read these quotes from Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard
"We have been abandoned by our own country. Hurricane Katrina will go down in history as one of the worst storms ever to hit an American coast, but the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina will go down as one of the worst abandonments of Americans on American soil ever in U.S. history. I am personally asking our bipartisan congressional delegation here in Louisiana to immediately begin congressional hearings to find out just what happened here. Why did it happen? Who needs to be fired? And believe me, they need to be fired right away, because we still have weeks to go in this tragedy. We have months to go. We have years to go. And whoever is at the top of this totem pole, that totem pole needs to be chain-sawed off and we've got to start with some new leadership.

"It's not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans here. Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area, and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now. It's so obvious. FEMA needs more congressional funding. It needs more presidential support. It needs to be a Cabinet-level director. It needs to be an independent agency that will be able to fulfill its mission to work in partnership with state and local governments around America. FEMA needs to be empowered to do the things it was created to do. It needs to come somewhere, like New Orleans, with all of its force immediately, without red tape, without bureaucracy, act immediately with common sense and leadership, and save lives. Forget about the property. We can rebuild the property. It's got to be able to come in and save lives.

"We need strong leadership at the top of America right now in order to accomplish this and to-- reconstructing FEMA ...."

Broussard then revealed unbelievable, clearly treasonous acts -- committed against his administration's valient efforts to save Katrina victims in Jefferson Parish, and to provide them with crucial relief in those first few desperate hours:

"... We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water ... trailer trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didn't need them. This was a week ago .....

"FEMA--we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my
Parish. The Coast Guard said, "Come get the fuel right away." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word. "FEMA says don't give you the fuel." Yesterday--yesterday!--FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines! They cut them without notice.

"Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards on our line and says, "No one is getting near these lines." Sheriff Harry Lee said that if America--[the] American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn't be in this crisis [emphasis added] ...."

http://www.enterprisemission.com/weblog/weblog.htm

BoarSpear

Add this little gem to the list of problems facing us now...then try and tell me you would feel differently...September 4, 2005 -- US Embassy in Baghdad inquires into reports that American troops in Iraq have mutinied against their officers. WMR has learned that the US embassy in Baghdad is checking into reports that U.S. troops in Iraq, including National Guardsmen, Army and Marine Corps Reserves, and regular military troops from Louisiana and Mississippi, have mutinied against their officers and are demanding to be immediately sent back home to help their families. It is not known whether the reported mutinies involve physical violence. The reports of rebellions among U.S. troops are filtering out of the Green Zone and at Baghdad International Airport from Iraqis who are working alongside their American counterparts at both locations.
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/