Mike Brewer

Guys and Gals,

I have been having an ongoing debate with an anti-gun friend of mine. If we can overlook the fact that I keep company with someone so misguided for just a moment, I'd like to get some opinions on what our Forefathers meant when they wrote the 2nd amendment. For your convenience, here is that amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

It's my position that having just fled an oppressive government which used its militia as a means of controlling the populace, our Founding Fathers likely had a strong distaste for the shock-troop philosophy of the British government at the time. However, they were smart enough to realize that they would need a standing Army if they were to keep the freedoms they fought so hard to win. Hence, the recognition in the 2nd amendment that a well regulated militia was indeed necessary to their security. However, there's a comma in the sentence that separates an idea - or clarifies it depending on your viewpoint.

The Founding Fathers of our country were forced to take up arms against the well regulated military of the British Crown. They were the people, and their arms were used for battle against the militia. So it stands to reason that a very plausible interpretation of the statement that is our 2nd Constitutional Amendment could be:

Because we need a well armed military to keep our citizens free, and because we never want that military to become a threat to its people, we will never allow the right of the people to keep their own weapons to be infringed.

In other words, because the military needs to be armed, so do the people.

What do you think?

BoarSpear

thats exactly what they meant...people overlook the fact that it was the rifled barrel that allowed us to use indian (guerilla) tactics. The rifled barrel was a byproduct of our hunters need to be able to hit a squirrel etc. so i would say our founding fathers were more than slightly aware of the benifit of an armed population.

Mike Brewer

By the way,

Based on one of BoarSpear's prior posts in another thread, I would seriously encourage everyone to write to their congressperson and/or senators and remind them of your personal gun control views. Unless you favor gun control. Then keep your heathen opinions to your damned selves.

BoarSpear

ROFLMAO...Amen brother

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HtTKar

guncontrol, this single topic has the ability to start another civil war. Not because either side is right or wrong, but there is no way to enforce it either way without war. Talking about guncontrol, is like talking about religion. I believe that if we take the argument away from gun-prevention and talk about what exactly a militia is; then we will be able to discuss this topis without so many feelings.

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Section 311 of US Code Title 10, entitled, "Militia: composition and classes" in its entirety:

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are —

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."
____________


-- Thomas Jefferson

-- Tench Coxe, 1788.

-- John F. Kennedy


Thomas Jefferson;
Purposes and Authority of the Militia:
The purpose of the militia as defined by the Constitution is to:
1. Enforce the laws of the Union (The Constitution)
2. Suppress insurrections
3. Repel invasions


Thomas Jefferson


So, I beleive; The governements military was created to protect us against foreign armys. unorganized militias protect americans from the Military. American citizens are the only people in the world that have the ability to protect out constituion. On september 11th, an unorganized militia prevented a plane from reaching its target in Pennsylvania. We are all "unorganized militia." Even if you read this and disagree, and never think about it again, you are still part of the militia (if you're between 17-45yrs of age, and not in the military.)

As much as your friend is anti-gun, there's really only 2 ways to get guns out of citizens hands. Either the government will have to declare martial law and come down on its citizens, creating a civil-war. Or an unorganized militia will have to rise up and forcefully take guns away from citizens...creating a civil war. All because of the power our founding fathers gave to the citizens of the USA. Checks and balanced dont only apply to governmental structures.

__________________
"The harder you train, the harder it is to surrender"
(Vince Lombardi)

Mike Brewer

Ht,
Good point, especially the one where you drew a line saying that the military is there to protect us from foreign powers and the militia is there to protect us from the military. But I think it goes further. The military is a body of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who serve America and her Constitution. We aren't around just for the defense against outsiders, but to defend America and the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I think you're definitely on the right track, but I think another way to look at it might be that the militia is the military, and the people are exactly that - the people this country was built for. Because we need a military (militia) we also need a well armed populace (people) so that the third party not mentioned within the Amendment (the Government itself) cannot be allowed to forget why they have been granted the authority to control the military. Our government's authority has always been founded on the idea that the public is well-informed. Electing officials to represent us is a serious responsibility, and it requires that we be far more educated than simply deciding whether or not we want more or fewer tax cuts in the next term. That means studying the history and the documents upon which our country was founded - especially the Constitution. The UN has already agreed to make and distribute 5,000,000 copies of Iraq's Constitution to its people. How many people in this country have their own copy of our Constitution? How many of those have taken the time to read it? Understand it? You see where I'm going. Without applying ourselves to the task of learning our own founding principles, we are destined to lose all sense of American Identity and patriotism. What we're left with if that happens is a bunch of Americans preferring to be called Latino, African, Pacific Islander, Asian, Scotch-Irish, or whatever - instead of simply saying, "I'm an American." despite the fact that twelve generations of their ancestors were born here. We're left with lawmakers that revert to international law to make decisions about domestic cases. Wait a tick....

Could it be it's already going on?

BoarSpear

Have you seen the flyer from the FBI about constitutional terrorists? it says "if you encounter any of the following, call the Joint Terrorism Task Force"

"defenders of the US Constitution against federal government and the UN"

"Make numerous references to the US Constitution"

"Attempt to 'police the police'"

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these were some of the things on the flyer, but one thing missing was any reference to Islamic fundamentalists... this FBI flyer was from November of 2001.

Mike Brewer

I didn't see that one. I agree with being careful, but making us suspects of domestic terrorism because of the oath the government asked us to swear? I don't think I'm imagining that part about stepping forward, raising my right hand, and swearing to defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic. What I don't remember is anyone telling me that there was a statute of limitations that ended with my discharge from service, or that I'd be considered one of those enemies for referring to and/or upholding my oath (that they required I take).

BoarSpear

yeah I agree 100%...that document stunned me for a moment, then i considered its source i think people underestimated how much that oath meant...i wouldnt be surprised to see the part about all enemies, foriegn and domestic get shortened if you know what i mean

note the Pledge of Allegience was found unconstitutional last week...remember the "under god" part was added in later...much later...so its not like they dont/wont change thier tune when its politically expediant to do so.

BoarSpear

yeah i dont recall that either...but im sure its in there somewhere (it's in thier minds at minimum)

besides i was under the impression the 2nd Amendment IS homeland security...therfore by owning a weapon we are defacto the militia....

Obviously we're gonna use these weapons to defend the country and its constitution...that is what the founders had in mind right? that makes us patriots...i thought that was a good thing ...

HtTKar

well, there's two militia; organized and unorganized. All American citizens belong to one of these whether they like it or not. Of course organized military is made up of our citizens, and they care for this country just like any of us...they are us. But it goes without saying that many times in history a country has been taken over by its organized military. "We the poeple"; the unorganized, are here for a little checks and balance.

True, and nothing is more important. Knowledge is power. There are many people that try to keep others from learning. In America your free to learn whenever you want. Noone should take that for granted. The same goes for both the Afghanistan and Iraq constitution. Many people are willing to put their childrens or their own life on the line for a document they've never even read. It is not the US constitution.
For example; Afghanistan Constitution article 3
-
In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam-

they should be read for a sense of perspective. I agree with you 100%. HOw great the US would be if everyone was involved in making this a better country.

I believe this is rooted in the way minoritys have always been treated in America. My great-uncle has a sign that says "No IRISH or DOGS allowed". It hung in a window of a building he bought and turned into a bar. The Irish were treated like crap and segregated into little irish neighborhoods, as were the chinese, the italian, polish, and the germans, along with probably many others. Its funny how at that time they would all change their names to sound more American; it meant that much to them and that should not be forgotten. But their naivity was quickly taken advantage of and most ethnicities at one time or another were treated as less-than-human. American foundation and principles didnt always apply to everyone. I'm only 3rd generation. All my grandparents came over from their mother countries in the early 1920's. Everyone had a little culture to contribute and it's only getting better. Our foundation is getting stronger in a world-wide sense, and American Identity now involves all cultures. I am American, but it took me most of my life to realize what that meant. Perhaps I havent finished learning the meaning behind those 3 little words, yet.

__________________
"The harder you train, the harder it is to surrender"
(Vince Lombardi)

Mike Brewer

Very well said, Ht! Too few people in my opinion know what those three words, "I am American" mean or ought to mean. My background includes Scottish, Irish, and American Indian. Arguably three of the more abused races of people in the past three hundred years. But the point isn't whose ancestors had it roughest. What has far more bearing on where we are headed as a country is what we choose to do, think, and say today. If I chose to spend my time and energy chasing down "reparations" from the British government for the fact that some of my ancestors were run out of their homes, had their wives raped, or were forced to serve the Crown of what they considered a foreign land, I'd likely fail to contribute anything worthwhile to the country I am a citizen of today. At some point in history, everyone;s ancestors got a raw deal. It sucked then, and we hopefully learned from it to get where we are today. I still believe unity is the way to go, though. Rather than consciously segment ourselves into caucasian, african, irish, scottish, italian, asian, this, that, and the other, how much further would we go if we conciously spent that same effort on belonging to the cultural identity of a nation that freed itself from oppression, and then provided in its founding documents for the liberation of all those who live here and feel oppressed (or are oppressed, in the case of African Slaves, Native Americans, et al)? What would America represent to the world and to ourselves if we were simply and collectively Americans instead of African Americans, Jewish-Americans, Irish Americans, etc.? Maybe that would be a good first step toward casting educated votes based more on what was/is good for America as opposed to simply what's good for me today. My god, what an amazing and powerful thing that would be...

Thai Bri

Where did the forefathers say you could carry a weapon for self defence?

BoarSpear

"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

the beauty of it is they said we could have them period...and the right should not be infringed upon...its plain and simple...the men who founded this country didnt feel it necessary to spell out what weapons were for...people used to have common sense enough to know what they meant... before the proliferation of lawyers and lobbiests began attempting to circumvent our constitution and looking for loopholes for thier fat cat friends. when you know what someone meant and try to get around it on a technicality you are setting out to be dishonest from the start...
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"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are
neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that
those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity...will respect the less important and arbitrary ones... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants, they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

~Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On
Crimes and Punishment."

"The peaceable part of mankind will be continually overrun by the vile and
abandoned while they neglect the means of self-defense. The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world, as well as property.
The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be
preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but
since some will not, others dare not lay them aside... Horrid mischief would
ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them;... the weak will
become a prey to the strong."
~Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War," 1775
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i believe both those quotes point out the intentions of our founding fathers quite clearly...

Btw interesting side note...i was banned from martial arts planet...for "running down the U.K. last week!! i was informed i was a fool if i thought being allowed to carry guns was a good thing, by several british subjects i replied that we won the Revolutionary War because we had weapons and experience using them to hunt, and if we hadnt had them we probably would still be under the queens rule...and if you believe your government disarmed you for your own good you are niave...Alas, they banned me

so i have to wonder about your line of inquiry Thai Bri....am i mistaken or arent you a cop from the U.K. ?

And speaking of our allies...whats with attacking an iraqi jail with tanks and troops to stage a jail break? i thought the iraqis were our friends and were on the same side! now the british military attacks a jail and lets 150 bad guys out to retrieve thier 2 undercover soldiers?? WTF is that? Where is the part about respecting thier culture and authority and laws now?? oh i see, its all bullshit huh? .....and you wonder why we wont give our guns up

i mean really ...2 british "undercover soldiers" are arrested for shooting 2 iraqi police manning a checkpoint...and the british send tanks to knock down the walls of the prison? not much faith in the legal system we are supposedly supporting...i guess its good enough to judge iraqis but not the queen's subjects? If two "undercover soldiers"' shot members of an american police force then used tanks to wreck our prison and free the assailants we would be okay with that?? i think not...but the iraqis just have to take it...HEARTS AND MINDS PEOPLE...ACTIONS REALLY DO SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050919/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

BoarSpear

Oh yeah another couple of points...many people claim we dont need weapons to protect us because thats the governments job, through the military and police...bullshit...they protect and serve all right...THIER OWN INTEREST!!

The first recorded looters in N.O were armed uniformed police looting electronics before before they slunk away...they used thier weapons and authority to loot and pillage, period. and what about these wonderful cases of the government ATTACKING and KILLING american families??

In 1932, the U.S. Army (led by MacArthur, Eisenhower, and Patton under the direct orders of President Hoover) cleared out and burned the encampments in Washington D.C. of 15,000 destitute World War I veterans and their families, injuring hundreds and killing several.

Lincoln ordered federal troops to fire on unarmed protesters during the civil war.

From 1942 to 1945 120,000 Japanese Americans were involuntarily incarcerated in concentration camps “for their own protection.”

In 1970, a contingent of 28 Ohio National Guardsmen opened fire, on students of Kent State University who were conducting a peaceful protest of the Vietnam War, injuring several, and killing four.

In Philadelphia during 1982, 11 people, including five children, were killed by the U.S. police, when a bomb was dropped on the house containing members of MOVE.

In April of 1993, 74 men, women, and children were shot and/or incinerated in Waco at the hands of federal agents who were attempting to infringe on their constitutional rights.

and lets not forget wounded knee and ruby ridge...

these are nowhere near all the stunts the government has already pulled
but its certainly a good start on research into trusting others with your security...

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

~Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the
governor, November 11, 1755