BoarSpear

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/artic...20Origins.html

By Frank Joseph

Political activists of the so-called “religious Right” in the United States never tire of preaching that their country was founded as “a Christian democracy.” But they are wrong on both counts.

When Benjamin Franklin was leaving the first Continental Congress, he was asked by one of many anxious patriots waiting outside the courthouse, “What have you given us?” Franklin replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.”

The difference might seem trivial or even non-existent to narrow-minded persons for whom democracy and dictatorship are the only conceivable forms of government. Yet, the very word, “democracy,” does not occur once in the Bill of Rights, the US Constitution, or any state constitution. It was mentioned often by America’s Founding Fathers, but invariably as a synonym for “mob rule,” and, along with obsolescent monarchy, an evil to be avoided.

Thomas Paine, the American Revolution’s most eloquent voice, summed up his colleagues’ view of democracy when he described it in his world-famous “Rights of Man” as “a species of demagoguery, wherein clever charlatans, making promises as enticing as they are impossible to fulfil, win for themselves unwarranted power and wealth, persuading gullible people to discard their liberties for a secret tyranny masquerading as public freedom.”

Particularly in the writings of Thomas Jefferson, the historic models held up for emulation did not include Greek democracy, but the Venetian and Roman republics. The difference between these examples most important to men like Paine and Jefferson was the concept of citizenship. Anyone born in a democratic state automatically becomes a citizen with all the privileges that entails, including the right to vote. In a republic, one is not born a citizen, but may only become one when he or she reaches adulthood; can demonstrate at least a fundamental grasp of the workings of their government, and is either going to school or gainfully employed.

In modern America, all that remains of these basic requirements is a restriction against voting until one’s eighteenth year. Foreigners must, in fact, pass tests proving their basic comprehension of the Constitution before becoming US citizens, which makes them more knowledgeable, discerning voters than native-born Americans, who are supposed to receive the same kind of rigorous Constitutional education, but rarely, if ever, do. In demanding at least some qualifications for citizenship, America’s Founding Fathers believed that responsible leaders could only by chosen by a competent electorate. Today, however, such notions are shunned as “elitist” in most countries described as “democratic.”

Yet more shocking to bible-beating conservatives, if they were to learn the awful truth, is that the United States was not founded by Christians, at least of the kind they would approve. Instead, that country’s constitutional republic was conceived, fought for and built almost entirely by deists. While the majority of Americans, then as now, were at least nominally Christian, most of their leaders were not. George Washington, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, Paul Revere and virtually all of their intellectual compatriots were deists. The term is not generally familiar today, but signifies a person who believes in a universal, compassionate Intelligence that made and orders Creation, manifests its will through natural law, but requires no religious dogma to be understood, only the faculty of reason with which every human is endowed.

Referring to the church of his day, Paine wrote, “The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue... My own mind is my own church.” Like his fellow deists, who made a clear distinction between church and state, he was convinced that freedom meant being able to speak one’s mind on all subjects, religious as well as political. He did not “condemn those who believe otherwise. They have the same right to their belief as I have to mine.”

Nor were the deists anti-Christian. They concluded that Christianity had at its theological core the same mystical truth found in every genuine spiritual conception; namely, the perennial philosophy of compassion for all sentient beings as the means by which the human soul develops. This recognition, however, deeply offended mainstream Christians, who insisted their brand of faith alone was correct, all others being heretical at best or demonic at worst.

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i have been reading Treelizard and Mike brewer discuss christian founding father issues and if your beliefs effect patriotism etc.

I have read everything i could find on history and war and the founding of our country. Many of the most interesting and controversial topics are covered in this one article. I know to expect the normal childish flaming, but if anyone can actually present any evidence to discredit these topics i would be very appreciative......also there is MUCH more to the article, click on it some of the more "interesting" topics are yet to be explored.

cam427

Everything below is taken from Matt Thorntons Blog which can be found at http://www.straightblastgym.com/blog/index.html. It has some serious food for thought on many topics.

Are we really a 'Christian Nation'?

I know that the modern conservatives like to drive home their belief that this Country, the USA, was founded on Biblical Christian ethics. And since my family has been in this Country since signing the declaration of independence, and prior to that if you count my children's native American heritage, I was curious about the validity of this claim. And although I may not agree with them on many points, their view was pretty clear.

Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity:

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

I recently read a very interesting article in Harper's magazine that was written by Bill McKibben. The article is called the Christian paradox.

Depending on which poll you look at, close to 85% of Americans call themselves Christians. By way of comparison Israel is 77% Jewish.

However, only about 20% can cite any of the four gospels.
Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife.
And three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that:

"God helps those that help themselves."

This statement was in fact uttered by Ben Franklin. And it appears nowhere in the scriptures.

More Jefferson:

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

From John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams:
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Here's Thomas Paine:
The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

Finally, let's hear from James Madison:
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

Cam

BoarSpear

Funny none of the writings of the founding fathers support the arguement they were all christian in fact in 1880 the christian union complained we were YET to have a christian president
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Six Historic Americans
George Washington
by John E. Remsburg

During the presidential campaign of 1880, the Christian Union made the startling admission that, of the nineteen men who, up to that time, had held the office of President of the United States, not one, with the Possible exception of Washington, had ever been a member of a Christian church.

Was Washington a church member? Was he in any sense a Christian? In early life he held a formal adherence to the church of England, serving, for a time, as a vestryman in the parish in which he resided. But this being merely a temporal office did not necessitate his being a communicant, nor even a believer in Christianity. In his maturer age he was connected with no church. Washington, the young Virginia planter, might, perhaps, with some degree of truthfulness, have been called a Christian; Washington, the Soldier, statesman and sage, was not a Christian, but a Deist.

This great man, like most men in public life, was reticent respecting his religious views. This rendered a general knowledge of his real belief impossible, and made it easy for zealous Christians to impose upon the public mind and claim him for their faith. Whatever evidence of his unbelief existed was, as far as possible, suppressed. Enough remains, however, to prompt me to attempt the task of proving the truth of the following propositions:

1. That Washington was not a Christian communicant.
2. That he was not a believer in the Christian religion.

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...chapter_3.html

eXcessiveForce

The deist idea comes from the fact that they were freemasons. Considered a cult by many christian denominations. however during the time period the masons were more of a group of rebels where they could meet in secret and talk about rising up against england and democracy.


Also the founding fathers also felt that it was important to protect the country from religious oppression as was the case in England.

There is a great difference though between being a christian and being a member of a specific denomination.

many of the founding fathers attended certain churches, however since they were not specifically asked to lay out their religious beliefs it is impossible to determine what they religious ideal they followed.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

eXcessiveForce

Here is some views on george washington's religious views and some ideas regarding why he was considered different things.http://www.virginiaplaces.org/religion/religiongw.html


alexander hamilton was quoted as saying
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."


Politicians very rarely comment on their religous beliefs for fear of alienating those of opposing viewpoints.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

eXcessiveForce

having recently read ben franklins autobiography i will point out that faith was important to franklin.

He considered one of the virtues to strive for in life to be Reverence.

I think it is important to remember that these are not one dimensional tv characters, they are people who grew and changed over time based on their experiences.

How do you seperate the persons religious beliefs from all of the other beliefs that make up that person.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Thai Bri

Phew! I couldn't be bothered to read all that.

But I often have a titter when I hear an American say that America is not a democracy. Particularly since those types are the strongest supporters of America's habit of invading countries to spread democracy........

Koma1

This is the greatest nation on earth, we should all be proud to be priviledged enough to live here!
Any backwards nation America helps out by replacing their evil regimes should thank the Lord for a country that cares enough to help the less fortunate.
And we should all say a special prayer for President Bush for all the terrible things he has endure for doing whats best for all the ungrateful slugs.

Tom Yum

Hi Koma, nice signature!