Education Petition Discussion - Moved from Silat Thread

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Uke

Poor people usually have no such path. The usual way for poor people to get a financial come up is from insurance policies when a loved one dies, or from lawsuits. And even when they get the money, even if its 100k, they usually blow it on cars, clothes and bling. None of those appreciate with time, but at least the bling doesn't depreciate. But that demonstrates what I've been saying: Poor people don't know where to put their chips, while the privileged are groomed from birth to know where their chips should go..

I would tend to agree. Honestly, you are born into a family and go from there.

Originally Posted by Uke

To know the difference you must know someone from the other walk of life. I have a friend who would still be richer than me if I hit the lotto five times. He comes from old money. He got to network in all the right circles, with friends like the governor's daughter. He's Yale alumni. See, my point is he grew up with these privileges already in place. That's not to say that he hasn't ever worked hard, but he was groomed to succeed from birth, by men who were groomed by men who were groomed. ..

I have friends who were born into families of lawyers and old money. At the same time, I have friends who carry all of their belongings in a large pack pack, survive on public transport and sleep where they can.

The friends that have gone upwards have never looked back.
We have our own preferences for our social groups; personally I'd rather hang out with a group of people who have just a little difference in interests than I and think just a little differently. They can see things you can't and vice versa. I care more about the individual person than where they were born.

If I travel, I see things from the ground level rather than a luxury hotel; do as the romans do and speak in their tongue. Call it low-class, budget or what have you but I'd rather see what's happening than pay $50 for a bannana breakfast and pretend like my crap doesn't stink.

You get the scoop on what's gonna happen 10 years before the media does since small, but important changes go relatively unnoticed when you're so high up.

Originally Posted by Uke

That is the sort of legacy we should strive to leave our children. A legacy of success, or at least "know-how", and not just debt without direction. You'd all be surprised at how little poor children and teens know. American schools are graduating teens that cannot read. They are pushing and promoting children through high schools like cattle. And now because of Bush's asinine "Leave no child behind" policy, even children who need the extra help and attention are being promoted regardless of their level of competency. I know it sounds like a conspiracy, but the ignorance of the lower to middle class is systematic. They receive a diploma, no questions asked, as if that's their passport to success. Nowadays, even Bachelor degrees are second rate. Businesses are looking for Master degrees and doctorates. A friend of mine who is a high school teacher told me that they no longer just want a Bachelor degree. He is back in college getting his Masters degree so that he can promote kids who can barely even read.

Until this kind of systematic sabotage that begins in elementary school ends, the American children will continue to become less and less educated and their chances to achieve financial freedom are crippled. So the 10%, who are the rich privileged children, will grow up to control 90% of the wealth. This is America's little "caste" system. Its not White. Its not black. Its green and its first name is Cash and its last name is Nepotism.

Public education in this country, from my personal experiences, is pretty good IF you can get into the honors programs. That usually requires above average scores and parental involvement.

Everything else is substandard in regards to content. I'm not saying that with disregard, rather from actually spending some classes in honors and at the regular level.

I tend to agree with your opinion on education. Parental invovlement is part of the equation too.

[Tom Yum]

Mike, you've got some great ideas!

The only thing that would concern me is that no all of society feels as charged about improving the government and contributing to society.

If government service were a requirement, you'd probably have some really inspired individuals and then slugs. The slugs would complain, weasel their way out and cut corners. They'd try to bring down or mock those who thrive on people energy.

Changing education requirements would be a wrestling match in itself.

[Uke]

I agree. Mike you do have some great ideas. But oddly enough, Tom took the words right out of my mouth. The problem isn't really fixing the system. The problem is getting people to give a damn. In order to bring about change, it has to be either the will of the rich or the will of the people. The rich already stick together. Getting the people to stand together is close to hopeless. Not saying that I wouldn't throw my hat in and get dirty, but I've been down this road. I've written my Congressman ..well CongressWoman anyway. I've suggested ideas to neighbors. I've had the pow wows with teachers and administrators.

The biggest obstacle is to get people to give a damn. Then you have to show them that we need .. or the cause needs their attention and energy for change. People are lazy, and I'm sure everyone here is guilty of not doing all that they can to make a difference. So just imagive how many people do nothing and want to continue to do nothing. Sadly, people feel like "If it aint kicking down my door, it ain't my problem".

But that doesn't take away from the merit of some of your ideas. As I read your reply, I began discussing it with my friend. She thought it was a great idea as well, but she also stated right off that even $1 is too much for some people to prat with. Even though they play lotto, or buy junk food daily in excess of $1, they still would rather not see anyone else have that $1.

People are messed up like that. However, if a candidate ran on these issues come 2008, I know now who I'd vote for. Mike's problem is that he gives people too much credit. Were ideas like his all that were necessary we wouldn't ever have had these problems. People want to sit back, vote, and hope that the people that we elect take care of EVERYTHING. People are lazy, and worse they are ignorant and aware of it. So their excuse becomes "I don't know what to do" or "What can somebody like me do?". That attitude sums up the problem.

If we could get people to abide by the ideas and concepts of what Mike and I are saying, things would be fantastic. But there is a sense of hopelessness that Mike clearly isn't aware of. People are on a whole depressed. Americans are living check to check, and have no morale. Their outlook is bleek, but they'll never tell you this. Part of being American is pretending that you're happier and you desires are more fulfilled than the next guy. No one wants to talk about the bank repossessing their car. No one wants to talk about living ina house they can't afford, and that's why they have no furniture. Most people hate their jobs, but cling on to them because with the competition out there today, there are no guarantees that you will find better.

When these people raise kids, they unknowingly pass down the frustration and anxiety to their kids. Not necessarily by being abusive, but arguments, venting, and just seeming tired of all the bullsh!t most of the time. Kids aren't stupid. Even at a young age they can sense when something is wrong at home. So when they start school and already have that feeling of "There's not a lot out there for me", they stifle their own growth.

I'd like to be more positive Mike. I truly would. But your ideas are not new, and all over the country people have argued these points and are exhausted from trying to get them implemented. There are people brighter and more knowledgable than you and I trying to fight that good fight, but do you know what brick wall they all run into? The people who just don't give a damn because they are a product of a failed education system and a failed system of equal opportunities. And so were their parents. And their parents before them.

Now if we could get an idea that would light a fire under those kind of people's asses, then wed be onto something, Mike.

[cam427]

Originally Posted by Uke

I cannot substantiate this Cam, but I was told that Black Americans cannot become citizens of Australia. A military buddy of mine told me this. Is he full of sh!t or is there some truth to this?

PS After re-reading some of my posts, I realized that I have made some of the most horrible typos. Forgive me, forum members. I am not the best typist, but my ideas are solid. But still my typos are so bad I'm tempted to edit my old posts.

Grrrrr....

I have an american friend who is married to a black woman and he said he was going to move to Australia but didn't because of the racism. This is all total lies. For some reason Australia has a badly undeserved reputation for racism in the US. Possibly this was due to the fact that up until the 60's they had the "white australia policy" where only whites were allowed to immigrate. Before anyone makes a comment on this remember that at this time blacks were still segregated in the US. This has been totally turned around in the last 45 years and the majority of immigrants are asian now.

It is very difficult for anyone to become a citizen in australia because of the tough immigration laws. You have to be seen to add value before you will be allowed in but race is not taken into account at all.

Your friend is full of shit!

[treelizard]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Treelizard, I'm a little surprised at the statement you made, too. A friend of mine is married to a Social Services case investigator, and she says that there's a backlog of fraud cases that's over ten-thousand files deep (not an exaggeration) that investigators haven't even been able to touch yet. It's actually surprisingly easy to screw with the system. Getting work at temp agancies and not logging enough hours, getting fired (on purpose, so as to draw unemployment), and even racking up false applications with buddies can be enough to get you an extra check. Kids learn this early by watching their parents.

And there are a lot of measures in place to make sure people don't do that. For example, people used to get food stamps where they would get actual change from food stamp dollars, if it was under a dollar. So people would stand in line and buy $.25 items with a food stamp dollar and get $.75 back. Then they would use the money to buy non-taxable items, do it three or four times and you could buy cigarettes with your food stamps. (Well I don't know how much cigarettes cost, I don't smoke, so I'm guessing.) Then the people in charge got smart and started giving out EBT cards instead of stamps, and any taxable items can't go on the card. I'm not saying fraud never happens, just that there are measures in place to prevent it. At the women's drop-in center where I volunteer there are measures in place to make sure the women don't get more than, say, one razor a week or one sleeping bag a year, or more than one cup of juice or milk each morning (for example) and this continues on many levels. People who get EBT cards lose their money if they don't pick up their general delivery mail at the post office, and people working in DES run your social security number and make phone calls to verify your information, etc. Sure there are ways around it, but I think DES does a pretty good job.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I may indeed expect too much out of people, but better that than too little. When low expectations keep you from even trying to make a difference, well, then you're a part of the problem. Giving up before you even start because you don't think people will care is like never even having a good idea in the first place. The thing we'd all have to do to get stuff like this to work is not give a shit who gets the credit. People in the past have tried to make themselves great by running on policies like this. That makes the issue itself as small as the person pounding on the campaign pulpit, subject to all the personal attacks directed at that person by his opposition. The difference in my approach is I don't care if anyone ever knew it was my approach, my ideas, or my anything. Politicians don't try to pass issues - they try and win votes based on them. I don't give a shit about votes. I want to see the issue pass. The reason that people have failed in endeavors like this before is that they were ultimately working for selfish reasons only - and they would use this or any other issue without attachment to do so.

Nice!

Mike, you've opened up my mind. Thanks!

You've got me in a new frame of mind.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I'm keenly aware of the widespread hopelessness that a lot of people feel. But only two things will ever change that. The first is force-feeding them a better way. The second is teaching them that they are in control. You get the changes implemented purely because of the hopelessness. Politicians are great at sneaking in nefarious and destructive laws and taxes - why not recruit them to sneak in a good one? With the right lobby, even that is easy to do. And like I said, the hopeless don't show up at the voting booths, so their hopelessness won't even be a factor in getting things passed. All you have to do is play the game so that they just aren't aware of it. You do that by making it a city-level program. Even the hopeless turn up at national elections, but when's the last time you saw them flocking to a town hall meeting? Fly the program in under the radar, and chances are they'll never even notice the buck you're takng out of their checks. What they will notice is the report that shows up in the mail saying that their school district has just improved over the national average. Or they'll notice the $5,000 voucher you send them to take their kids to the next district because theirs fell below standard. I'm not only aware of the hopelessness and detachment many people feel - I'm counting on it as a tool for success!

As for the slugs who comlain and try to cut corners, citizenship is a remarkable tool. It worked for the Romans. This may be a far less implementable idea than the education reforms, but service could be a pre-requisite for citizenship. If you want to do it another way, you could say that your service guarantees your own citizenship, as well as your immediate family's. However, if your grandkids want to be citizens, either they or your kids need to serve. And maybe you make it a more lenient policy. Maybe you say that you can enjoy the benefits of citizenship with some exceptions, like voting or owning a gun. You'd surely get tons and tons of support from the anti-gun people if you did it that way, and anyone who served could legally own whatever they wanted to. I know this idea is far too radical, but it's fun to toss around. And radical or not, I'd vote to pass it!

All I can say is "Amen".

[Tom Yum]

Calling Britt, Calling Britt....come in Britt.

We've got our own online lawyer. Let's see if he has anything else to add.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Still, I need to be careful how public I make the petition, and how I word it. I want a ton of signatures, but I want the disinterested and hopeless to stay out of the mix...

Morning Mike,

Well, you wouldn't have to do much to achieve that .

I think fear could be a big motivator.

Depending on the culture of the work-place, folks who work in the corporate world learn real quick that if you stick out, you get cut off.

I'm not being pessimistic. That's not a trait of mine, just trying to be a realist.

[Tom Yum]

I liken current education to the traditional martial arts, more particularly McDojo ism.

Learning concepts isn't a difficult challenge. Making them work in the real world in a contributive way is.

I reread your education petition Mike and I like it alot.