Tom Yum

Anyone seen it yet?

I'm going to see it this weekend.

PS - please don't spoil any of the details.

Trailer
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475276/...ay-E27051-10-2

nutter

I'm not joking yeah, when I say that I think it's unethical to make hollywood films like this where so much of it is speculation but it is presented as factual. It makes heros of people who may or may not have acted heroically right. It's propoganda which tries to write history a certain way innit. And it detracts from the real unknown heros of that incident. In fact it is not even known for sure whether the crash had anything to do with the passangers rebelling; it is quite possible that the hijackers just lost control because of their inexperience or nerves innit.

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Tom Yum

The best way to find out is to read about the black box replay, I presume.

The actual event that caused the plane to crash could be up to speculation. The call that the passenger made to the operator and the events that happened shortly after were recorded by the operator, I think.

More research to follow.

nutter

Yeah, we can all speculate, put the evidence together and make a guess as to what sequence of events is most likely right, but it's still only a guess innit. This film is a fiction based on real events and paints a picture that is most palatable to the US population who want to have heroes to temper the complete defeat by a foreign power which it was in reality right. Imagine for a moment if the evidence pointed to one of the hijackers loosing control by diving too steeply right; I bet the film wouldn’t be made, or at least not giving that account right because it is too mundane and doesn’t reflect well on Team-USA right. It’s just insensitive propaganda.

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Tom Yum

From Wikipedia:

"The transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder were made public .....The tape was reported to have contained voices saying "Allahu Akbar," English shouts that included "Let's get them!" and "In the cockpit. If we don't, we'll die" then screaming and other sounds followed by silence. Sounds of crockery smashing have led to the conclusion that a service trolley was used as a battering-ram to force the cockpit door open"

"The 9/11 Commission found from the recordings that, contrary to what many have believed, the passengers did not succeed in entering the cockpit before the plane started its dive. It is more likely that they broke in after it was far too late and the plane was descending vertically at nearly 600 MPH. The 9/11 Commission ruled that the actions of the crew and passengers prevented the destruction of the Capitol building or the White House by causing the hijackers to abort the attack on their intended target"

nutter

Yes, we all know that but it isn't certain what happened, even the Commission's findings have to be looked at from a political perspective don't they mate. America needs heroes. Hollywood loves heroes. Makes a bitter pill easier to swallow. The hijackers won, it's that simple innit.

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GonzoStyles

can we take a vote to ban this annoying ass? "the hijackers won" won what?
come on butter what exactly did they win? anyone without a shred of moral decency can take innocent lives it's not that hard, so what exactly did they "win"? Al queda is even more fragmented than before and there hasn't been another attack in the US, so what exactly was "won"???
talk about insensitivity!! that comment alone should get you banned, but I guess thats why I am not a monitor I would have dispatched with your shit starting ass along time ago, you should thank Mr.Mike for letting you stay around as long as you have...

Tom Yum

Now you're projecting just a little bit.

The facts show that the passengers chased the hijackers into the cockpit. The hijackers were rather nervous considering that they'd rather crash the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field. Why would they do that, nutter?

They were either slightly uneasy about something and decided to get it over with real quick or they were f@ckin geniuses who chanted "down with the Penn-state farm fields!"

Which is it nutter?

Your theory about needing heroes to make the bitter pill easier to sollow is indeed a theory, maybe on a good day. On a regular day its just an opinion.

.....I think someone watched too many episodes of Friends and then got dissapointed when it wasn't real.

nutter

Hang on mate, they did win that battle mate, plain and simple. Nothing insensitive telling it like it is. Warping history in the interests of sensitivity takes away from the lessons that can and should be learned right. I don't support the Terrorists in any way, hell it was shocking right what they did innit. But no amount of heroising the passengers of a hijacked jet which crashed killing many Americans makes it a victory for America mate. The Hijacker's were suicidal and their aim was to kill Americans and send a message throughout the world that America can be attacked by Al Qeada and they succeeded. America failed to stop it.

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nutter

Mate, their aim was to kill Americans. Crashing a plane load into a field is part accomplishment of their aims and amounts to a successful mission right. A sick and unjust mission in my opinion right but still a successful one from their perspective.

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Tom Yum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ew_phone_calls

Get your facts straight: There were 37 passengers who died on that plane, including the 4 cowards responsible, not 100's.

Its not a victory; I'd say its more of a tragic loss. Atleast the passengers had the will to fight back. I'd applaud the same spirit if it happened in the UK, mate.

We're still talking about United flight 93, the flight that was aimed at the Pentagon.

The plane did not hit the Pentagon. American lives were lost, but the terrorists conveniently missed their target by a few hundred miles.

Keep in mind, the hijackers had pilot training and they still missed their target by several hundred miles....did they put their feet up on their desks during pilot school, sporting headphones listening to Ali G while their instrucor's lectured away? Doubt it.

If the passengers of United 93 could 'convince' the hijackers to 'land' far off from its destination, I'd say that the hijackers acted rather impulsively and the passengers were indeed heroic.

Yeah, lives were lost - but not quite as many that could have been, if they made it all the way not to mention the political and symbolic damage.

nutter

Yeah it's not as bad as it could have been mate, we all agre there, but it's still a big bad over all. There probably were heros aboard the flight, there so often are on all sides in any "combat". Hell from a Muslim Fundementalist viewpoint the hijacker's were heros - I know I don't have the guts to do what they did even if I hated the enemy as much as they did. Do you mate? If you were piloting a plane with OBL and Hitler's mum in it could you you crash it to kill them?

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Tom Yum

I don't give a flying f@ck about the terrorists point of view at this point. Why would you take their point of view in the first place?

Hitler's mum is allready dead --> problem solved. Where the hell is your common sense? I'm no pilot and I'll never be one, so that situation would never happen.

nutter

You see, that's the problem with remembering history as you want to remember it. I'm not TAKING the terrorist's side, I'm just not manipulating history to make it look like something it's not which is exactly what the film is trying to do. And your crap evasion of the self-sacrifice point is telling innit. Don't worry I can't imagine having the guts to crash a plane either. Those hijackers were brave, that's not moral support, it's just an observation. Here's a cliche right: one person's terrorists are another's freedom fighters right.

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Tom Yum

You conveniently keep bringing up the terrorists point of view, mate. That's your own call.

Yeah one person's terrorists are another's freedom fighters.

Here's a list of our allies concerns with freedom fighters...

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/securit...errorism-risk/

http://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/terrorism/is2.html

I'd also add concerns with freedom fighters in South Africa, but I guess they're combating different kinds of freedom fighters than our other allies....