Jim Grover

knifehand · 07-09-2006, 03:57 AM

hey fellas was wondering if you could tell me anything about jim grover ......i was looking at purchasing JIM GROVER'S COMBATIVES SERIES ........is he very similar to carl cestari?........or is he a more modern version of the fairbairn principles?.......i cant find mr. cestai's videos so do you think this would be a great alternative?......im looking for a combative self defense video more leaning to mr. fairbairn' ideas and principles.....any help would be appreciated.

**Thai Bri** · 07-09-2006, 09:26 AM

Hi mate,

I have some Cestari videao as well as the Jim Grover/Kelly McCann Combatives series.

The McCann stuff is better in my view. He isn't all that precious about preserving the old ways, and sees the possibility in improving things with time and experience. Cestari sticks with the WW2 methods as if they are perfect and can never be improved. Mind you, if that is what you are about, Cestari sticks more rigidly to it.

Also the presentation with Grover/McCann is infinitely better than Cestari's. McCann presents things in detail and has taken care to have relatively high production values. Cestari has a student point the camera at him, and then he talks. And talks. And talks.

But I wouldn't necessarily recommend either set for real life self protection in the modern world. They both have flaws in their methodology in my view, and there are better things out there by Geoff Thompson and Richard Dimitri. I also like Nick Hughes' stuff. He's an ex French Foreign Legionairre, and I reviewed his first DVD somewhere here on this site.

Good luck!

**Thai Bri** · 07-09-2006, 09:29 AM

Nick Hughes - French Foreign Legion and Military Combative #1

Here!

This is the first one in a series of 6. I would recommend this before either Cestari or McCann.

**Thai Bri** · 07-09-2006, 09:39 AM

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/page19.html

See what a help I am to you?

knifehand · 07-09-2006, 10:52 AM

thanks brother........the MCcann dvd's are over 100 bucks so i really wasnt too sure about it.......i like thompson/consterdine stuff as well.....very modern and up to date tactics....cestari i like too but didnt realize he was so ww2 combat rigid......i guess no system is perfect....even W.E. Fairbairn's.....thanks again

darrianation · 07-09-2006, 01:10 PM

I think Kelly McCann's material is top of the line. I have all his vids "Combatives Series" and "Inside The Crucialbles". I have also trained at the Cruciables. He is top notch. Carl is good too. Get both.

Garland · 07-09-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrianation

I think Kelly McCann's material is top of the line. I have all his vids "Combatives Series" and "Inside The Crucialbles". I have also trained at the Cruciables. He is top notch. Carl is good too. Get both.

Easy there money bags!

Why don't you post them on youtube???

Please!

stabbychick · 07-09-2006, 03:20 PM

.............................

darrianation · 07-09-2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

Easy there money bags!

Why don't you post them on youtube???

Please!

Fortunately, I got most of them free from a friend. They are expensive.

Not sure how to post them on youtube. But a friend of mine has all my crucialbles vids right now. I have some of Carls JJ vids and they are good too for the most part.

knifehand · 07-09-2006, 08:47 PM

thanks for the help guys and gals....much appreciated....just read an interesting article about kelly MCcann and what he thinks about ww2 combatives and MMA in the military http://www.realfighting.com/1102/McCannART.html
he seems like a top notch combat instructor ....and believe it or not doesnt seem to like groundfighting in the military combat program....i could have misinterpreted it though.....i guess he would be a good authority on the subject.......im not sure what i think about it but MCcann does make some excellent points on it.

darrianation · 07-10-2006, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knifehand

thanks for the help guys and gals....much appreciated....just read an interesting article about kelly MCcann and what he thinks about ww2 combatives and MMA in the military http://www.realfighting.com/1102/McCannART.html
he seems like a top notch combat instructor ....and believe it or not doesnt seem to like groundfighting in the military combat program....i could have misinterpreted it though.....i guess he would be a good authority on the subject.......im not sure what i think about it but MCcann does make some excellent points on it.

My thoughts are...in military combatives your skills are there to keep you alive until your buddies get there. The winner of the fight is the one whose teammates get there first.

**Thai Bri** · 07-10-2006, 05:15 AM

I've heard that said too, but don't like it. I think the winner of the fight is the one who wins first. The Gracies came up with it to somehow get their ideas of taking someone to the floor accepted. The idea of hoping your buddy gets to you first is as bad as tossng a coin.

The military should fight the enemy with missiles, or planes, or tanks etc. Then it gets down to an assortment of guns. Failing that, knives. Hand to hand is there last, and should include vicious striking. Any grappling is there merely to facilitate the striking.

**Thai Bri** · 07-10-2006, 05:21 AM

ps - Kelly McCann? He has his "SWAMP" principle. Not only is it flawed, but he doesn't even practice it himself!

The offending bit is "move the Weapon first." Trying to get power like that is like pushing a piece of string. But, like I said, you watch him. He advocates it (wrongly in my view) but doesn't actually practice it.

One of WW2 Combatives major flaws in my eyes is the repeated use of the "Horizontal Edge of Hand" blow. Think of the "karate chop" to get it into your mind. They point their elbow at the bad guy and then hack away at him with this blow.

This elbow is supposed to be a great cover position, but try this experiment with your training partner. Have him come at you as described. All you do is put your hand on this elbow and push hard. It totally smothers the blow, unbalances the guy AND is a great help in getting chest to back position. Blows like this should be aimed at someone to the side or rear of you, and only used as a cover as you turn to face him. Then revert to palm heels etc.

Just my view.

Garland · 07-10-2006, 10:04 AM

what about this dude?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGX2K...2%20combatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbM65...2%20combatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31b1c...2%20combatives

Garland · 07-10-2006, 10:22 AM

another Krav Maga vs. MMA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqUg...=fight%20dirty

07-09-2006, 03:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
knifehand Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 40 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jim Grover hey fellas was wondering if you could tell me anything about jim grover ......i was looking at purchasing JIM GROVER'S COMBATIVES SERIES ........is he very similar to carl cestari?........or is he a more modern version of the fairbairn principles?.......i cant find mr. cestai's videos so do you think this would be a great alternative?......im looking for a combative self defense video more leaning to mr. fairbairn' ideas and principles.....any help would be appreciated.

07-09-2006, 01:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
darrianation Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,161 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think Kelly McCann's material is top of the line. I have all his vids "Combatives Series" and "Inside The Crucialbles". I have also trained at the Cruciables. He is top notch. Carl is good too. Get both. __________________ The law of tyranny: 1. Any power that can be abused will be abused 2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it. 3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail. Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

07-09-2006, 03:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
stabbychick Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 431 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	............................. __________________ Screw you guys, I'm goin' home... and I'm taking my posts with me.

07-10-2006, 10:04 AM	#14 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,013 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	what about this dude? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGX2K...2%20combatives http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbM65...2%20combatives http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31b1c...2%20combatives __________________ homo homini lupus

07-10-2006, 10:22 AM	#15 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 5,013 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	another Krav Maga vs. MMA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTqUg...=fight%20dirty __________________ homo homini lupus

07-09-2006, 09:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi mate, I have some Cestari videao as well as the Jim Grover/Kelly McCann Combatives series. The McCann stuff is better in my view. He isn't all that precious about preserving the old ways, and sees the possibility in improving things with time and experience. Cestari sticks with the WW2 methods as if they are perfect and can never be improved. Mind you, if that is what you are about, Cestari sticks more rigidly to it. Also the presentation with Grover/McCann is infinitely better than Cestari's. McCann presents things in detail and has taken care to have relatively high production values. Cestari has a student point the camera at him, and then he talks. And talks. And talks. But I wouldn't necessarily recommend either set for real life self protection in the modern world. They both have flaws in their methodology in my view, and there are better things out there by Geoff Thompson and Richard Dimitri. I also like Nick Hughes' stuff. He's an ex French Foreign Legionairre, and I reviewed his first DVD somewhere here on this site. Good luck!

07-09-2006, 09:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nick Hughes - French Foreign Legion and Military Combative #1 Here! This is the first one in a series of 6. I would recommend this before either Cestari or McCann.

07-09-2006, 09:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/page19.html See what a help I am to you?

07-09-2006, 10:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
knifehand Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 40 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks brother........the MCcann dvd's are over 100 bucks so i really wasnt too sure about it.......i like thompson/consterdine stuff as well.....very modern and up to date tactics....cestari i like too but didnt realize he was so ww2 combat rigid......i guess no system is perfect....even W.E. Fairbairn's.....thanks again

07-09-2006, 08:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
knifehand Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 40 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks for the help guys and gals....much appreciated....just read an interesting article about kelly MCcann and what he thinks about ww2 combatives and MMA in the military http://www.realfighting.com/1102/McCannART.html he seems like a top notch combat instructor ....and believe it or not doesnt seem to like groundfighting in the military combat program....i could have misinterpreted it though.....i guess he would be a good authority on the subject.......im not sure what i think about it but MCcann does make some excellent points on it.

07-10-2006, 05:15 AM	#12 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've heard that said too, but don't like it. I think the winner of the fight is the one who wins first. The Gracies came up with it to somehow get their ideas of taking someone to the floor accepted. The idea of hoping your buddy gets to you first is as bad as tossng a coin. The military should fight the enemy with missiles, or planes, or tanks etc. Then it gets down to an assortment of guns. Failing that, knives. Hand to hand is there last, and should include vicious striking. Any grappling is there merely to facilitate the striking.

07-10-2006, 05:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
Thai Bri Premiere Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,423 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	ps - Kelly McCann? He has his "SWAMP" principle. Not only is it flawed, but he doesn't even practice it himself! The offending bit is "move the Weapon first." Trying to get power like that is like pushing a piece of string. But, like I said, you watch him. He advocates it (wrongly in my view) but doesn't actually practice it. One of WW2 Combatives major flaws in my eyes is the repeated use of the "Horizontal Edge of Hand" blow. Think of the "karate chop" to get it into your mind. They point their elbow at the bad guy and then hack away at him with this blow. This elbow is supposed to be a great cover position, but try this experiment with your training partner. Have him come at you as described. All you do is put your hand on this elbow and push hard. It totally smothers the blow, unbalances the guy AND is a great help in getting chest to back position. Blows like this should be aimed at someone to the side or rear of you, and only used as a cover as you turn to face him. Then revert to palm heels etc. Just my view.

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