Mike Brewer

In another thread, I made the point that fighting can be a lot like room clearing. Actually, room clearing is fighting, but you catch my drift. Some things I'd like to examine:

Most of us travel and hang out with our friends in public. What training do you do together to make fights go your way? Since you spend time together, it's likely they'll be on hand in a fight, so do you train together?

What about your spouse or kids? Any planning or drills for fight situations?

How about for weird situations like while sitting in your car and getting attacked through the window. What if you're someplace you can't simply drive away from (trapped in traffic at a light, boxed in by the bad guys' cars, etc.)? Any plans?

Let's get creative, people. What situations and scenarios need to be trained, but are often overlooked? What kinds of tactics should we be thinking about? How do you plan and rehearse with people like your spouse or kids that may not be martial artisits? What do you show them?

I'll start the ball rolling with an example from my own past. My wife is a very capable martial artist (certified instructor and registered badass in Filipino Martial Arts and Muay Thai), so I don't worry about her ability to handle herself. We train together often, and we have a number of signals worked out for as many eventualities as we could think of. In one instance, I was walking with her in a distant town on vacation. We spotted a man that just looked out of place. He was staring at us, and whenever we looked his way, he'd clumsily look away. I casually scanned and realized he was communicating with someone across the street, and we were between them. I don't know if they had any hostile intentions, but I thought it was prudent to send a "We are not prey" signal. I scratched my back, lifting my shirt enough so that the guy who was behind us could see the butt of my gun. Lisa looked dead at the first guy as I did so - locked eyes and stared confidently. Although I didn't see him, she said he looked away from her and to his buddy, who promptly beat feet. She distinctly saw him look back at the guy. When his friend left, his body language changed, he pulled out a cigarette, and walked casually down the street in the same direction as his friend. it's a drill we have worked on. I send a signal to the person we think is an accomplice, and she watches the primary. Chances are, if they're working alone, we'll know it. If there's another party we haven't ID'd yet, they'll try to clue him in to the danger. And if I'm just reading the situation wrong, the guy we originally suspected is none the wiser.

So let's hear some input! What scenarios and situations have you prepared for? Haven't prepared for? Have ideas for?

Looking forward to the input!!

traveller

This is almost spooky as I spoke with a coworker about something similar today. The point was protecting your family.
We have some set rules in the house or when we are out as a family.
At home we have a rally point for any verified emergency. Tornado sirens, etc.
When the emergency is unkown. Broken glass or unexpected noises in the house in the middle of the night, the rules are different. Whoever is closest to the young ones gathers them to the safest place. You don't run to the another room unless you have too. As they all know dad will be moving about armed, no movement is made without saying "it's me dad" and waiting my conformation that I heard them. And no one else grabs a gone, unless told.
They also know where to go if I say to move. There is no question as to which room they should head to.
The bad part is, it has been tested. The good part is that it worked. Without a thought the teenage boys grabbed the youngest and headed to one of the safe rooms.
I made my way through the house and met the would be assailant/thief at the back door. He was on our porch and it would have been legal to put a hole in him, but our plan was effective and I felt the danger was minimized to the point that a warning would suffice. While I was aiming at the guy through the window telling him to leave the property, one of the boys had alreay hit 911 on the phone.
The police picked him up about 2 blocks away at someone else's door. They came by later to inform me about the arrest.
We also plan for things on camping trips, while taking road trips, etc.

Tom Yum

Hey guys.

Some women aren't interested in self-defense training, sadly enough. Its just not their interest. Some women are interested, like tree and others.

To get to the point of training scenarios we have to keep women interested in the topic in the first place.

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Love it, leave it or fix it.

Mike Brewer

Well, while I certainly think more women should get involved, my personal training isn't dependent on any women wanting to train except my wife. So (callous and non-P.C. as it may be) the short-term answer might simply be to surround yourself with women who are interested instead of trying to change the rest of their minds.

Just a thought.

So, in the spirit of discussion, Tom, assume the women in your life were interested. What kind of tactics and scenarios would you work? Why?

Tant01

Two heads are always better than one. My (late) wife would scan for anything and everything and report to me in various ways. Usually I'd be a step ahead of her but once in a while she'd mark something that made me feel creepy. My daughters are casual but keen. They need to be.
I'm the only guy with training in my household so I just try to stay alert and keep everyone aware of the environment.

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"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Tom Yum

Good point, Mike. Its hard to change another's mind.

I'd like to teach them about awareness and not going to bad places.

Other than that, I would like to teach them to respond, use verbage and not freeze up under a self-defense scenario.

Tactics?

I don't think I have much to offer than what's allready mentioned. I could teach some techniques under different scenarios but that's not really a tactic.

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treelizard

Yeah, and there's plenty of guys who won't train, like the dude I hung out with the other day who told me he got beat up at a gas station, and it would probably happen again because he doesn't have any more training now than he did then... or the dude who got mad at me because I asked him if he could sit so he could watch the door for a change, and he told me I had more training, and then got all mad when I said, "Well, maybe you should get some more training then."

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http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

traveller

One of the most essential training elements you should consider is for travelling in foreign countries on vacation or business.
I have travelled extenseively and at one time worked with the school house cadre that demonstrated to military and civilian leadership travelling abroad how easy it was to gather intelligence on them and set them up for theft or worse.
The experience actually taught me more than I wanted to know.
When travelling out of your home country it is unlikely you will have a gun or significant weapon, unless your duties require it. For the average person it is nearly impossible to bring a gun of any sort into some countries.
On a trip to Thailand (beautiful country and very freindly people) we had a some advanced folks scope out the area we would be working in and get reports from the local police on possible danger zones. Not everyone has this luxury but there are country teams that can help vaction travellers with this info.
Where we would be going was known for its great food, hot night spots, and naturally, high street crime rate.
We set ground rules well before venturing anywhere.
No one moved alone. There was always one person who would not drink. Etc.
When we needed directions to a club or restraunt, we always asked well in advance of leaving the hotel. Sometimes even the day before. You never really knew who worked with the local street thugs or organized bad guys.
We also made it appoint to not leave together or through the same entrance even.
This may sound over the top to some, but trust me there was sound reason for our decisions. Plus, a bunch of very anglo looking guys and a very dark skinned blackman stand out in Thailand.
Not everyone was comfortable with the idea that we may have to defend ourselves, so any plans had to account for that person being a potential hinderance or at least a neutral piece on the board. The fact that this was Thailand, and that some of our less educated aquaintances thought every one in the country was a master martial artist, made some of them outright liabilities.
It was everyone's responsibility to keep eyes and ears open. Simple things worked as signals. Stop at a store window and say "hey check this out" was enough to make sure everyone knew something had peaked your interest.
When we went out with the group we picked who walked the lead, who would stroll behind, who was in between (usually the person we thought was the largest liability if it came down to trouble). On the way home, the non-drinking guy always took point. You may still get followed, but a sober guy is less likely to walk you all down the alley just so he can take a toilet break.
I know that doesn't really spell much out for you, but the situation needs to be assessed based on where you are and who you are with.
If this particular group had not been my military buds, I may have chosen a different path -- like staying in the hotel room.

traveller

Now some one is going to ask if you can actually train for what I just posted.
The answer is yes, but I'll leave iti as an open question and see if anyone comes up with a good way to do it.

Mike Brewer

Suggestions for the open question left by traveller:

• Think about the primary security concerns abroad, and how you'd go about identifying them early enough to prevent the occurrence. Thinking about how to counter it "in flight" is far too late in the game.
• Some common security concerns in different regions include coordinated kidnappings and ransoms of US nationals (and especially Germans, since they have paid kidnappers more than any other nation), armed robbery, con artists, assassination attempts (of varying complexity and lethality, especially in places like the southern Philippines as a white guy, or in places like Colombia, etc), political hostage taking (like in the Middle East, where the purpose is usually a propaganda killing). Threats vary by region and activity, so pick one and discuss counter-measures.
• Think about formations. Who stands and walks where. Why?
• Think about signals. How do you let the group know what's up without alerting the bad guys?
• Think about "battle drills." Since there are different threats, what do you prepare for first in order of priority, and how do you train to adjust the plan under fire? Who moves first, when, and in what direction? Who calls the shots for the group?
• What are the "cues" for an attack? How can you draw those out to make the attack more obvious, and how do you do so without reaching the critical "trigger point?"

Lots of good ideas to work with. Who cares if you've never done it before, guys and gals! Pretend you have to do it now! Let's brainstorm this stuff and see if we can't all learn something. We're all martial artists, and to some degree this stuff all applies to empty hand confrontations as well, right here at home. So brainstorm. If this happened to you tomorrow and you were with your three best friends, what do you do? Simply resigning yourself to defeat because you haven't been formally trained is not an option. The title of the thread is, after all, Let's Get Creative!!

traveller

Good thinking points from Mike.
Situational Awareness is key to your safety every where -- in your house, in your car, at the restraunt.
I have another post ready for this thread, and some of the info can be translated to any situation.

traveller

If you have read other post you know I have two primary backgrounds of employment – the military and security – but funny though I do little security in the military.
Anyway, my security experience ranges from security on the Port of N.O.s, clubs in the French Quarter and elsewhere around the world, concert security, some bodyguard details, and some facility security.
In my experience the place you are most likely to get injured in a security gig is at concert or club security. Two main reasons – more people to deal with and lower level of training for the staff.
I am going to focus on clubs. Since an event in my early days, which I have posted about in the Story Time thread, I try to never work as a lone security guy. I have and if I keep doing security on the side, I probably will again, but I don’t like it.
Trust me it is not out of fear. It is about what the job entails. The mission of club security is not to fight the Idiot, but to get him out of the area so he can’t hurt anyone or himself, and so that he doesn’t create larger security issues.
If you work with me you will train or I will have the manager get rid of you. If he doesn’t – I walk. That simple. I don’t need the money bad enough to put myself at that type of risk.
Some of the more skilled fighters at this site may claim they can do it without my training, that’s fine. But over and over again I have gotten the job/gig because my team was trained and put very simply --- a team that is trained together works better than a team that is not.
I won’t go into all the tactics, but there are key elements.
We train hand signals. A lot of folks will say you don’t need that with radios and earpieces. Forget it. The first thing I drop is the ear piece before I even confront someone. The little cord is just begging to wrap around your neck.(and cordless cut deep if someone punches the earpiece) And in most club/show atmospheres they are almost useless anyway because of sound distortion.
Hand signals are limited to about 5 to 8 and are simple and easy to remember. You don’t need to have a conversation, just get help, get the help into position and warn them of anything they may not have noticed.
The basic approach I train is two security folks ( it easily can expand from there). You only confront an individual by yourself if you absolutely have to.
Once everyone knows signals, we train on positioning.
There are other ways of positioning with two, but I have had the most success with a simple “take the right” approach. Most people are right handed is part of this theory, but not all.
The “Lead” is always the person confronting the Idiot.
The “Second” is always the backup.
The Lead naturally stands in front of the Idiot.
The Second takes position behind and off of the Idiots right shoulder.
This gives us both a clear view of the Idiot and each other. If we have to move we both take the Idiot on our own right side,(meaning lead actually gets the Idiots left) and take him down or away to his right.
Easy enough, because you just have to remember the “right.”
Remember we are not trying to hurt the guy. If he fights back we will use the force to hurt him if that is the only way to stop him.
We also train on the confrontation itself. How to talk to a pissed off, possibly drunk, Idiot, who may have just had a fight or been getting ready to start one.
The last thing I need is someone to say “bring it on.”
Lead does all the talking – PERIOD. Second scans for buddies and signals for additional help if needed, while waiting for Lead’s signal.
If the Idiot doesn’t go off half cocked you escort him to the door keeping your exact same positions. No touching him – this is antagonistic.
If he moves toward Lead without being told, he goes down plain and simple.
Incorporating the rest of the crew is easy once you have the two person concept in place.
There are a lot of ways to do it, but I like simple.
Third comes into Idiots left and back.
In this scenario, Lead does not make physical contact unless needed. He only signals the go.
The actual tools of the take down vary. You don’t need some super fighting technique, but a skilled security guy is definitely and asset.
I prefer (note other post by me) taking away the Idiots ability to walk. You know that simple trick you pull on your buds and you kick or step on them behind the knee. That’s the easy move for Second or Third to take.
This positioning tactic also conforms very quickly to a multiple person situation, whether you know ahead of time or it happens during the initial confrontation.

Stopping and existing fight – if no one else post in the next day or so – I’ll try to remember.

Sagacious Lu

When I lived in New Orleans my friends and I worked and hung out in the French Quarter all the time. Lot's of times we'd be there to do something specific but sometimes we'd just go down there to hang out, goof off and go visit friends that were working down there. If you're familiar with the Quarter you know that it gets crowded quickly, especially on Bourbon, or just about anywhere if there's a parade or festival- which there almost always is. Lot's of times we used to play Hide and Seek in the crowd. There'd be three or four or five of us, and someone (or multiple people) would randomly try to lose themselves in the crowd. The idea was to follow the rest of the crew without them being able to find you. After a while you'd try to tap them on the shoulder from behind while they were searching the crowd in confusion. My closest friends were in on the game and new what was going on, but it was lots of fun to tease people that didn't know. It was really just us being a bunch of wise asses, but it did build some real skills. It taught me how to spot a person in a crowd, how to see a huge crowd as a collection of individuals, and to notice details about them. It also taught me to move quickly through a crowd, how to lose myself in one, and how to follow someone. Unfortunately Atlanta isn't the kind of town where people walk places very often so I'm rarely in that kind of environment any more.

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grappler-jordan

Great posts Trav and Mike, good stuff all around.

When moving in groups especially on international travel I think it is important to maintain a defensive posturing. My habits are partially ingrained due to traveling while active duty military and DoD to multiple locations in the Middle East (Bahrain, UAE to name a few). Alot of these same principles apply to being anywhere in todays world though.

by default I will say ALWAYS TRAVEL IN A GROUP! NEVER TRAVEL ALONE! now that it's been said...

1. Always be aware of your environment, know where you are, know who in your party is capable of handling themselves in a conflict, know who is not and move and respond with those plans in mind. Always watch your surroundings, never wander mindlessly without a planned objective. These are some very basic keys to group defensive posturing, they are the first I mention because if you leave any of these "chaos factors" to murphy it will come back to haunt you 7 fold in the event of a conflict.

2. Always, always, always establish a lead. Traveller harped on this and I have to as well. It is key that when confronting a potentially hostile situation the aggressors have 1 point of focus to communicate with the group. No confusion, conflicting attitudes, usual you want the person who thinks best on their feet and has a calm collected persona.

3. Always try to have someone with you who can speak the local lingo, if you know you are going to travel somewhere ahead of time, take the time to learn the basics. A little learning can go a long way...

4. Establish danger signals. The don't always have to be hand signals as for those without training that may become complicated but something like the SAS colour clock is VERY easy to learn, print it out, go over it with your party and show them how to indentify and alert a potential threat. It also prevents you from having to say "Hey! Look out for the guy across the street in the green shirt."

5. Always look for your path of escape, always be aware of your best way out of a situation, this comes back to situational awareness again but this responsibility can be put on someone besides the lead (i.e. rear guard). Although if the lead is your best navigator it may be smart to let him make this decision but if he is engaged in de-escalating a conflict someone needs to be aware of the best way out of the area you are in.

There are some other factors that come into play in actually handling a conflict when it escalates but so much of those are dynamic based on where you are, who you are with, what the local regulations are. Example, I was in Bahrain working with a team of DoD security guys, we were out getting some good in the evening and were walking back to our (this is all in Manama city for those of your familiar). Well for those of you who have been there you know there is a mosque on every corner and that evening prayer can be heard everywhere in the city no matter where you go. Well as we were walking back to the Gulf (our hotel) and as evening prayer ended there was a follow up message that was broadcast. Well 2 guys with me spoke enough arabic to decipher that this was a message from Al-Qaeda encouraging action against U.S. soldiers and representatives. Being in the middle east and obviously glowing the aura of american military haircuts and swager we stood out like sore thumbs. The crowd nearby quickly grew aggressive but we remained calm, followed our plan monitored all threats and moved quickly back to the hotel. If we had not been aware of our surroundings, or had not been with someone who spoke the local lingo we could have potential been in a very, very bad situation. Our entire response was based on the fact that we knew where we are and that the crowd was hostile. Later we had to head back to the base and they were moved up another Threatcon level etc. etc....

So how does this translate to going out for a night in hometown U.S.A? Well really we should be just as prepared to deal with threats in downtown Dallas, Houston, L.A, San Diego, NY, D.C, where ever you may live as if you travelled abroad. Proper Previous Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance (I am sure you have ALL heard that one before). If you want to perform properly when responding to a potentially hostile situtation then PLAN FOR IT!

Although my wife is not into the arts, at all. She understands aspects of self-defense that I have pretty much forced her to let me teach her so that if something happens when we are out for dinner or a drink, she knows what I am doing and how to keep herself as safe as possible.

Some of the situations Mike brought up are great scenarios to think about. For instance being attacked through the window of the car, not that uncommon these days, if you are trapped in by you aggressors vehicle how do you respond? To be honest I would run the stoplight (right on red if possible) or hop the curb and pull a U-turn. If the guy actually came through the window I am not sure how I would respond. Maybe use the door to create space (slam it open into the opponent, while remaining strapped in) then roll up the window and continue to try to move my vehicle. I think the worst thing you can do is get out of the vehicle and expose yourself to possible unknown elements. Anyone have a good plan for that situation?

traveller

Seeing as Situational Awareness is a common theme, I recommend really considering Sagacious Lu’s comments for a lesson in that arena.
We played this game as well back in the day, and you can really pick up a lot about SA by doing just what he recommends.
You don’t need a big crowd. You can do it in a mall.
The idea of adults playing games like this may seem foolish to some, but finding out how well you can disappear in the crowd or mall, may very well be what keeps you out of danger in some of the scenarios mentioned so far.
Remember the escape route G-J mentioned, well if you have a route and can disappear it makes it all that much harder for anyone to follow you.
SL also noted how he was soon able to notice little things about everyone around him.
Also, pllay this game at work with a coworker, or at home with family.
Give him/her a 30 sec look at a room. Then go into the room, close the door and move a few items around. Open it again and see how many changes they note in say 2 mins.
As they or you get better, cut the observation time back. Later cut the analysis time back..
In the Mall you can pick a person or group of people and give your partner a 30 sec view and make him close his eyes. Have him tell you key factors about the person or group.
You may surprise yourself at how weak your powers of observation are, or you may find out you’re pretty good.
You can do this on your own as well, but you don’t get quite as accurate of a read.