Tom Yum

I've got pretty good precision when fresh (pretty tight groupings) and mediocre accuracy with the 9mm round at 20-25 or so feet. At 10 feet or less, accuracy isn't much of a problem.

I'm pulling slightly to the left it seems, so I compensate by placing the sites a little to the right. I fire slowly, while exhaling and try my best to keep it steady.

I'm going to get qualified with the M-9 soon and expect to get some excellent instruction. I'm also going to read up on FM's to learn assembly/dissasembly and try to do it for time.

Any advice on improving accuracy?

Obviously I'm going to get as much time downrange as I can, but on top of that are there any techniques or mindsets that will improve accuracy for the beginner?

Same question, but for heavier rounds (.357 and up). At 10+ feet, my accuracy is unsatisfactory.

Thanks.

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Mike Brewer

Dry fire a lot if you can. Practice making the actual motions, just like you would a fighting technique. The key things I always taught when I did pistol marksmanship were, in no particular order:

Good base. In combat, there's no such thing as a shooting "stance" but for marksmanship, it helps. Make your feet comfortable, be aggressive, and get "into the gun." Lean your weight forward, not away. The ideal for freehand shooting seems to be the isoceles position in which you hold the gun at full double arm extension (no significant bend in the elbow), and press it toward the target so that your shoulders are supporting your arms as well. Good, strong wrists. Your gun should come up to the line of your eyesight, without undue "scrunching" of your neck or shrugging of the shoulders.

Correct grip. Seat the grip in your firing hand by pressing the beavertail (the little ledge underneath the hammer) into the web of your thumb so that the barrel runs roughly straight outward from the bones of your forearms. The more natural this line is, the easier it is to point it straight ahead of you. Now, if you look at the palm side of the grip you just made, you'll see the space between your fingertips and your thumb/palm. Fill that with your other hand. Done correctly, both of your thumbs will be pointing forward, the same direction as the gun. Watch some Shooting USA on Outdoor Network or get some IPSC or IDPA copetitions on video to see what I mean. To determine how "hard" to grip the gun, squeeze hard until you start to shake, then back off until the shaking stops. Done properly, this will ensure three things: (a) that your grip is keeping the gun aimed straight down the forearm in line with the dominant eye, (b) that the grip allows both wrists and hands to support the weapon throughout the shot, in turn allowing the trigger finger to function without unduly influencing the rest of the hand, and (c) the amount of tension exerted on the weapon will allow for proper function, good control of recoil, and quick follow-up shots.

Sight picture. The phrase that pays is, "Equal height, equal light." When looking at your sights, you should see the front and rear sights at the same height, and you should see equal light on either side of the front sight post. Your front sight should land roughly at center of the visible mass of the target, and both the target and the rear sights should be a little fuzzy. Again, we're talking about marksmanship here, so pay attention to that front sight focus and ignore the guys who talk about point shooting for now. You'll learn that in skills and tactics training. For now, just worry about qualifying expert. The way to do that is to stay on that front sight. "Blessed is he who in the face of evil sees naught but his front sight."

Breath control. Again, we're worried about marksmanship, so be precise. Breathe a few times heavily if you can to hyperventilate and thoroughly oxygenate your blood. It will slow your heart down, and you'll be a better shot. later in the day, after lots of rounds, it will also help keep your shoulders, forearms, and the other muscles that support good shooting fresh. As for breathing during the shot, breathe in and then let it out until that natural pause at the bottom of the exhale. I always used to count that pause in my head as I squeezed the trigger: "One...and...squeeeeeeze." Breathe again after the shot goes off, rinse, and repeat.

Trigger control. You want to train your finger to press the trigger straight backward into the receiver. You don't want too much finger on the trigger, because it will "curl" the gun and you'll pull your shot left (if you're a rightie). Another indicator of left-tilted shot groups is that you're squeezing with more than just your trigger finger. If the big muscles of your hand are involved, you'll see them flex and press the butt of the gun in, tossing your shots leftward. What you're after is a directly rearward pressure, and only with the trigger finger. As you train with the dry fire stuff, watch that sight picture, and try hard to keep your front sight focus, equal height, and equal light all the way through the release. When the trigger snaps, hold it to the rear for a one-count. Then, release it slowly, just to the point it resets (clicks). DON'T jackrabbit off that trigger. Good follow through allows the bullet to completely exit the barrel before you start screwing with it, and it allows you to get back on target faster for good follow-ups during combat shooting.

It sounds silly, but one of the best things you can do is go get yourself a BB, pellet, or even an airsoft pistol, and train these basics ad nauseum. I bought a copy of my carry gun in AirSoft when I was training the troops, and I shot between 250 and 500 rounds a day on weekdays. That practice alone allowed me to keep up with the number three shooter in the US Army, who placed sixth in the world in pistol competition. I would outshoot him as often as not, and it was because of the techniques detailed above. Oh, and we did all our shooting with the standard issue M9.

Good luck with it Tom. Keep us posted.

Knuckles&Knees

Wish you well, Tom.

Mike, sounds like he knows what he's talking about so I'd follow his advise. (at least over mine)

I don't know this "freehand shooting" Mike is taking about, but the way he describes it sounds like how cops are (or were) trained to shoot with chest forward and both arms parallel to each other. I never understood this way of shooting. The way I was taught in the military was to use what we called the "weaver stance." Since I'm right handed my right arm would be fully extended and the left arm very much bent and under the right arm (best way I can explain it). We would fire and move in the "groucho walk" like this. We fired standing, kneeling, and from the prone position. I think we fired prone at something like the 50 yard line.

Anyways... only advice I can give is to concur with Mike on the dry firing. Pressing the trigger is so important in pistol craft, you start jerking the trigger and as you know your rounds go all over the place. I was always told, you squeeze the trigger on a rifle and you press the trigger on the pistol. I believe the difference is probably subtle.

One problem I always had with the pistol is my tendency to lean my head downwards toward the side (to look through the sights) as I raised my firearm.

Mike Brewer

K&K,
The Weaver position used to be taught a lot, and there's nothing wrong with it if you can make it work. What I was describing is often called the Isoceles poition, and it finds merit with a lot of combat shooters because it is a lot closer to what your body does in response to incoming fire anyway. It's a variation on your body's own startle response, and it insures that all moving parts are locked into a position to support one another as opposed to the Weaver. With the Weaver stance, you have a bent arm and a relatively straight arm, and you have a slightly angled body position. The two major problems with this are the fact that the arm structure doesn't support and control the pistol as well as it could (recoil is taken in the hands and firing wrist instead of all the way down both arms and into the shoulders, etc.), and the side facing stance itself. Look at a soldier's gear. His body armor is designed to protect his front and back, and it's weaker in the sides. Why, then, would you want to put the weakest part of the body armor forward? It's a question no military shooter was ever able to answer for me. It diesn't significantly reduce the target you present to an adversary, and it puts the parts of your armor that protect best someplace other than in the way of incoming fire. Bad tactics...
You're right about movement, though. A good "stance" means you're a dead gunfighter. If you're standing still at all, you're a target, not a combatant. Cover and concealment should combine with mobility in a gunfight or you are apt to become a perforated gunfighter with big leaky holes in your person. That is also bad tactics. However, most qualification ranges are more about marksmanship than they are about tactics, so I suggest Tom stay with the kind of basics they teach to bulls-eye shooters and boy scouts. Oh, and by "freehand shooting," I just meant without a rest or support.

Knuckles&Knees

Interesting post, Mike. I never thought about that point you made regarding the infantryman's or "rifleman's" body armor but you raise a good question regarding that. Even when I was in - that is within the secondary MOS I held - we were issued vest jackets with thick trauma plates (in front and back), it seems that now this is standard or more standard issue to U.S. ground troops today. So, I suppose if you must catch a round in your upper torso it would be best if one of the trauma plates actually be the receiver and not your sides.

Do you know if FBI agents and other federal law enforcement agents are still being trained in the weaver stance?

Mike Brewer

It's shifting. Weaver used to be the industry standard. I think it was trained by everyone except the Secret Service (who actually trained a modified, fully upright isoceles position so that they could cover as much of their principal with their own bodies as possible). Now, it's looking like the isoceles or some variant thereof is becoming the norm. A big factor (at least in my opinion) has been the proliferation of shooting sports like IDPA. People are seeing shooters get astounding results in terms of accuracy and time (really fast groups where they should be on the target in very short fractions of seconds) while moving and shooting around barriers, etc. It's made people re-examine what's possible. When you see a shooter like Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham run a practical pistol course (or even a three gun course), you realize how much in common it has with basic infantry skills training. Now, it's not the same thing - don't misread me. It's a sport, and it functions as such. But the fact is, it shares an important element with combat shooting: Putting many rounds consistently in vital areas in as little time as possible. If you can take that basic and expand it to the soldier's environment, you have a set of pretty good ingredients. Like the chefs always say, "If you start with the best ingredients, it's hard to dick up the meal." Take a look at some of what I'm talking about and you can judge for yourself. Here are a few of the better known practical pistol shooters doing their thing in competition.

YouTube - IDPA in Phillippine

This guy uses a variant of the Weaver in the first section of fire. Listen to the rhythm of his shots. Watch the movement required to go from shooting to reloading. Take a look at the flip of the muzzle, and the control he manages to exert on the gun. Now look at the next video and see how those things improve with a more "modern" position.

YouTube - The Great One on stage 7

Rob Leatham is using a .45 ACP. It's a customized gun, made to race, but it is still a big caliber. Look at the control he has compared with the other guy. Look how little the muzzle flips. Look how fast the follow-up shots come. See how his shoulders bounce back a little with the recoil instead of his wrists jumping? The isoceles gives him better command of the pistol. Now go back and count shots fired. All of those were "A" zone hits, and he spent 24 rounds in 12.3 seconds. Unreal. Still, since I'm sure some will claim the equipment made it easy, here's another example of good use of the isoceles.

YouTube - IDPA in Phillippine

This gun is largely unmodified, except for the high capacity magazines. It's a .45 ACP with no compensator, and he shoots it well while on the move and standing still. 34 shots in roughly 20 seconds. Great control, good follow-through. The difference is pretty spectacular. Now, one final illustration of what the isoceles allows you to do. For this one, you'll watch Jerry Miculek rapid fire an old-fashioned Smith and Wesson revolver. The only mods to this gun are his trigger job and the Jerry-Custom-Shop grips. Were it not for the fact that he's using an isoceles position, he would not have the control over the gun to put this many fast follow-ups on target. Enjoy.

YouTube - The Great One on stage 7

That's a bad man...

Knuckles&Knees

To be honest, I can't critique firearms or people and their pistol craft like you. Nonetheless, I could tell in those first 3 video clips that those guys had good control over their pistols, moved well, and fired not just with rhythm but fast.

The shooter in the first video I was very impressed with. He fired a lot slower then the guys in the two following video clips, but the guy seemed poised for combat. As you mentioned, he utilized a modified weaver stance in that first kneeling position - as he walked and fired on the targets it seemed he was in the weaver or slightly so in that too. His double-taps weren't any spectacular speed (but you can only shoot as fast as you can hit anyways) but the guy shot from ease in his "weak side position," not to mentioned transitioned fluidly and with ease to the weak side. I don't think I could have done as well. I liked how he covered both targets (from the seated position) at the end even though he did not fire on them.

The shooting in the follow to videos is fast. No way I can shoot that fast - not if I want to hit anything.

That last video, of this guy Jerry Miculek, was just INSANE. With a semiautomatic I should have no problem placing three rounds on a target in 2 seconds from maybe 10 or 15 yards (if I practiced - I haven't fired a gun in a loooong time). This guy, however, is so insane he's scary! I have never seen anyone fire a pistol let alone a revolver like it was a fully automatic rifle. That must have been some modified trigger pull.

Mike Brewer

You're right on all counts, especially the notion of only shooting as fast as you can hit. "Go as fast as you can, not as fast as you can't" is a saying that my good friend and trainer used to say to me, and it is true for shooting as well. A fast miss does no good compared to a slow hit.

However...

The isosceles position allows for a sturdier platform, and therefore has the potential for greater speed and accuracy. If these same guys did their shooting from the Weaver, they'd still be fast and accurate, but not quite as fast or accurate as they are now. Again, if you're talking about maximizing the potential of a marksman, best to start with the most stable position and work from there. Isosceles is a little more stable than Weaver, and it's easier to learn well since everything is equal on both sides. It's aggressive, and it allows for a shooter to deal with targets close up and at distances. We've already talked over the tactical points of presenting the areas of greatest protection, but it also does one more thing we've not yet mentioned. It allows you to use one of the most basic parts of the human machine - both eyes. By facing the threat, you're using your binocular vision to its fullest advantage. By keeping your head and neck straight instead of turning them to the side, you're reducing the stress in the neck and keeping your airway more open. Under combat pressure, this position allows you to breathe easier, and helps to reduce the tunnel vision some shooters get.

Like I said at the outset: There's nothing wrong with the Weaver if you can make it work. It's tried and true. I just think that the tactical and mechanical advantages of the Isosceles position are greater.

P.S.
Jerry Miculek's pistol has, I think, a two-pound trigger. It's not a featherweight, but it's not hard. Consider also that he fired in double action! He didn't cock the gun for each shot. For a revolver, that means the trigger was likely in the eight to ten pound range, even if it had been tuned up.


Tom -
Is any of this helping?

Tom Yum

It is Mike, thanks. This post is a wealth of knowledge! I've practiced both the weaver and triangle that you mentioned. The most recent time out, I used the triangle method. All I've been doing is range firing - so your commentary on cover, concealment and movement is a good glimpse into some stuff I may be lucky enough to learn.

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warrior_artist

Mike has given excellent information. I would only add emphasis on trigger control. A pull to the left usually means your jerking the trigger in response to anticipating the recoil. Practice dry fire alot. Work on keeping the motion smooth. Also a good way to test your trigger control is to use dummy rounds mixed in a magazine of live rounds. Load up a magazine with some live and some dummy (snap caps or orange bullets). Don't count where it's at and shoot at the range. If you're shooting and you the gun goes click, but you've jerked the gun anyways you know you're anticipating the recoil and "pulling" the trigger more than pressing the trigger.

Think of trigger control as pressing the trigger rather than pulling. Press, press, press, press, press, then BANG! Don't make the gun go bang, just let it happen. As long as everything else is in place, stance, grip, etc. (see Mike's excellent post above) then the gun shouldn't move at all if you've hit a dummy round.

That'll take a whole lot of practice. Another good thing about have a dummy round in the mix is that it prepares you mentally for malfunctions and drilling in the immediate action drill/ response to a misfire. TAP-RACK-FIRE. So it serves a double purpose.

I shoot and was trained in the isoceles. I prefer it for a lot of reasons. I've been shooting since a kid and the first gun I shot was my Dad's S&W 29 .44mag 8 3/4in revolver. Not shooting in isoceles would have knocked me all over the place.

And of course movement, but that comes after mastering the basics. As was mentioned earlier you shouldn't be "standing" anywhere in a gunfight. Stepping of line while drawing and returning fire is a must. Remember one of the possible stress induced physiological responses is tunnel vision. Meaning your opponent might very well be experiencing it as he's engaging you. You're stepping off center could very well put out of his sight and confuse him while you respond and engage.

One of my favorite books on the subject (and I apologize for deviating slightly from the topic) is: On Combat by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. I believe it is a must read for all military and law enforcement personnel. It's great mental preparation for entering the realm of the universal human phobia: interhuman aggression, the toxic, corrosive, environment of combat.

Good luck on improving your marksmanship.

Tom Yum

Thanks.

The two of you guys have provided a wealth of knowledge on the subject! One of the reasons why I think this site is one of the best out there.

There's alot less fluff and is packed with more knowledge than other sites. Hope to contribute more some day once I build my knowledge base.

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bigred389

Mike, looks like my last post, and the pointers you provided on my questions got deleted, but I put 400 rds downrange at 25 yds and made MASSIVE improvements.

Accuracy was fantastic, and now I'm basically looking to improve speed. Both between shots and when practicing (re)acquiring a target when firing off the draw.

Mike Brewer

I'm glad the advice helped. Now that your marksmanship is on a good road, let's talk about working out of the holster. This is just my own preferred method, and there are millions of other ways out there. This isn't as fast as some of the race guys' methods, but it's still very fast and it's more tactically sound, so give it a try and then look around for modifications.

The key here is consistency and precision. This is a case where practice doesn't make perfect - perfect practice just makes precision.

Empty your gun and lock up all live ammo. Make sure that there's no way on earth that a live round can make it into your weapon, and then double check to make sure.

Next, gear up. Wear your gun the way you'll be carrying it. If you wear outside the pants with a shirt flopped over the gun, then train that way. Inside the waistband holster? Train it so. Don't make things easier for the sake of feeling good about your speed in the basement only to find out that you can't unfuck the gun from your jacket when you need to in real life.

I carry outside the pants on a high ride belt holster just behind my blue jeans seam aft of my hip pocket. I drop a shirt or jacket over my gun and so that's the configuration I'll address here. There are two ways to make the initial movement, one of which I am fonder of. My preferred method is to raise my off hand to a protective/offensive position in front of me. I should be able to hit with it, stiff arm someone to keep distance, or protect my gun side in case he tries for my weapon. Remember - just because the off-hand isn't actively engaged in drawing the gun doesn't mean it should be neglected as a weapon.

Next, clear the clothing. I generally do this with my thumb by sweeping my extended thumb backward from my centerline, hand held palm-side down. When I get past the gun, I drop my hand straight down onto the grip. My off-hand is now hovering near the center of my body well clear of the muzzle and the line it will follow. It's bad to shoot yourself through the off-side palm.

As soon as the muzzle clears leather, I pivot it forward toward the bad guy. Reason being, if I need to fire on a closing adversary or from extreme close range, I want that muzzle on him, not the floor. From there, the gun comes up to meet my off-side hand and then punches forward to line up the sights. We already talked about grip, so I won't go into it again, but that's the grip you should have as soon as your hands meet. When I say "punch forward," I mean you should keep your head and eyes up and forward facing and push the gun forward into your line of sight. Don't slouch or bring the head/eye down to the gun.

To reholster, reverse the process, keeping the muzzle forward until just before you reholster. Again, the tactical reason is that you want to be ready and able to re-engage a threat at any point.

Now that the basics are there, here's the routine. Again, do this sans ammo, and make sure there's no way in the world a round could accidentally find its way into your gun. Execute the technique I just described in a slow (five seconds per repetition) pace. If you find yourself feeling clumsy, go even slower. Do at least one-hundred slow, disciplined repetitions. Make each one exct and precise. If you screw one of them up, stop, reholster, and get it right. Reinforce correct execution, and don't let yourself get sloppy.

Next, do a hundred reps at a three-second pace. Same thing. Go a little faster (this is still a slow draw), but push yourself to execute everything correctly in less time. Get used to that idea. It's not about "Going Faster," but about doing the same things with equal smoothness and precision in less time. If you think about going faster, you're going to end up so focused on speed that your technique will fall apart. On the other hand, if you focus on doing things right in less time, the idea that you're "doing things right" comes first.

Work your way to less and less time. When you start flubbing often, you're at the right speed. Back it down until you're getting it right every time again. This is akin to the method for determining grip strength. Grip til you shake, and then back off until it levels off, remember? Well, in this case, you cut more and more time until you start screwing up and then back off until you stop screwing up. Now it's time to hit the range. You should have around a thousand reps of this movement in dry-fire mode before you ever set foot on the range. Not only that, but they should be perfect, since you stopped and didn't count the bad ones.

On the range, load one round. Holster in the carry position. Don't worry about going fast - just do the five second pace again. Pay attention to each piece of the motion and how it flows, only end the draw stroke with a trigger squeeze and a well-placed shot. Drop the slide and reholster. Go through the whole painful process again. Five second pace, three second pace, two second pace, a hundred reps each. At two seconds, you're executing a slow, casual draw. Once you get so intimately familiar with that motion that you're doing it in your sleep, do it again with a full magazine. BE DISCIPLINED! Make yourself go slow. Resist the urge to speed up. After you've invested five or six thousand repetitions of dry fire and live fire drawing, it will be so natural and smooth that you can start cutting time.

For that phase, you'll want a buddy and an IDPA or IPSC shot timer. The idea then is to wait for the signal tone, thn draw and fire at the casual pace. Without neglecting safety, you're now going to push to do it in less time again. Now, accuracy is your measure of success. Go as smoothly and quickly as you can and do it in less and less time until your accuracy starts to suffer noticeably. If you did the dry fire the way I've suggested, I'd wager your time from draw to first shot will be hovering in the 1 to 1.3 second range. Like before, get to where your accuracy begins to falter and then back off until you get it right more often than not (70% success rate is a good guideline). After 500-1000 rounds of disciplined and attentive practice, I'd be surprised if you weren't nailing the draw and a double tap with accuracy in 1.2 or so. It'll get better the more you practice correctly, and dry fire reps are every bit as good as the real deal, so invest the time in home training. It'll pay dividends.

Let me know how well this pans out for you. I'm glad the last set of tips helped.