Mike Brewer

Um...yeah...but the thread is called "Peaceful, Moderate Islam."

Can we stick to that?

Tom Yum

Dick, what you've said is true. There are religious extremists in every religion, but the biggest conflict in today's world is Radical Islam vs. The West.

No its not Islam vs. Christianity, its Radical Islam vs. Western Ways.

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Mike Brewer

Tom's right. You can point out all the small scale examples you want to, but all of them are distractions from the real fact that Radical Islam is trying to exterminate Western ideals and civilizations, and there are over 800 million supporters of that worldwide. Let's stick to the topic and discuss the peaceful and moderate groups that have a prayer of stopping that kind of colossal movement.

DickHardman

thats only cause we are currently waging 2 large wars in 2 different muslim countries, while our ally is bombing refugee camps filled with muslims daily, and people wonder why there are so many angry muslims.

Mike Brewer

No it isn't. The trend in Islam started well before the two current wars. If you believe that all this got going when we went into Afghanistan, then you need to go back and read further into the history books.

jubaji

That's funny, advising dick to read "further" into history books! LOL! As if he'd ever gotten any 'further' than tripping over the pretty colors on the cover!

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Mike Brewer

I just mean that as far back as 630 A.D., Muhammad himself was leading "Islamization" campaigns against pilgrims and places such as (or rather specifically) Medina. These campaigns included the "cleansing" of non-believers and forced conversion, as well as the outright domination of other religious systems, pilgrimage rites, and beliefs. It also, in case you weren't picking up on this, claimed Medina (a city that Muslims took by force alone) as one of Islam's own Holy places. Hmm. Now that sounds very strangely like the sort of thing some Palestinians are upset about today. It's okay for their prophet to ride into Medina with an army and kill off the non-believers, purge the pilgrimage routes, abolish the established pilgrim rites and rituals, and plant their own flag, calling Medina their own holy city. Out of curiosity...does anyone want to guess at the religion of the people Muhammad drove out of Medina?

But if the Jews move in and take up residence in the Middle east - Kill 'em all and shove 'em into the sea, right?

As early as 685 A.D., Islam was making attempts to spread religion as a form of government, attempting to supplant Greek and Persian governments, rule, and even money. Really, it is at this point when you can make a case for Islam positioning itself in opposition to Western culture.

By the early 700's A.D., Islamic armies were riding on campaigns to take over Western countries. Within a decade or two of Islam deciding that its religion should rule over Western governance, Islamic armies had ridden into Spain and taken over.

People like to point at the Crusades as the beginning of it all, but the Muslims were indiscriminately pursuing Islamization across most of the known world several centuries before the Crusades even happened. It was, in many ways, the reason that Muslims became a "justifiable enemy" for the Crusades in the first place.

As for Islamism in modern times, again - look back to World War II. The roots for every radical group we're dealing with today took hold in the times when Hitler allied himself with Islam in the Middle East, and anti-semitic sentiment grew right alongside anti-Western sentiment right on up through today.

In short, Dick, the sentiment in Islam has been around a lot longer than 2001, and the actions of Islamists against western civilization began during the time of Muhammad himself.

EDIT:
Here you go. I thought a timeline might be helpful...
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/timeline.htm

Mike Brewer

My point in the last post was not to start another jihad or anything, by the way, and I am not accusing Islam of behavior that the rest of the religious world hasn't and doesn't participate in themselves. Every religion has had its moments, and I'm aware fo that, so please don't feel obliged to post a bunch of YouTube videos of the suffering Palestinians. The point is, Islam is the only thing out there that can effectively counter Islamism. And again, it's far easier to find well-organized radical groups than it is to find well-organized peaceful or moderate groups. And that's just not true of most other major religions.

Here you go. I thought I had something when I found a website that claimed to be a peacemaking effort between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Wrong again, Mr. Brewer. Here was their headline:

DickHardman

nobody was focused on radical islam the way we are now before 9/11 and the two subsequent wars. yeah muslim extremists and violence has been around for years, but only now is it getting so much focus. not only that, but even though extremism existed before our two current wars, it only grew and spread to the degree its gotten to as a direct result of our wars. if you dont think that launching 2 wars in countries that are of great significance to the muslim religion isnt gonna piss off tons of muslims and fuel extremism even further, you are kidding yourself.

Mike Brewer

That in no way means it didn't exist, and it's also no excuse for our not paying attention.

The threat existed long before 9-11, and the prevalent anti-West attitudes in Islam are even older still.

The weakest, most impotent argument that could possibly be put forth is "Nobody was paying attention, so it wasn't really that bad." The wars we're fighting have certainly angered Muslims all over the place, but since many if not most harbored anti-West feelings already, it's not really relevant. This just brought it to the forefront sooner rather than later.

Your argument is very much like saying, "There was really no hostility against the U.S. by Japan until after we took the war to them in the Pacific. We weren't really paying attention until Midway and Iwo Jima, and it was the war that really made the difference."

That argument is flawed on a whole lot of fronts, not the least being that Osama and his Islamists attacked us before we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. According to a survey that was being run in the years immediately prior to 9/11, there was only about a 5% shift in anti-West sentiment. In other words, they still hated us and on pretty much the same scale - we just weren't looking. In fact, even in the wake of 9/11, when groups like Gemmat al Islamiyah were condemning bin Laden (as if that's not a conversation between the pot and the fucking kettle), popular opinion was largely unchanged. There were some more pronounced shifts in the very short term, mostly in support of the US, but those were very localized pockets of Islam, and none of them reflected even superficial changes in State or Regime attitudes.

In short, our wars have made people on all sides pay more attention, but the situation has not changed much for it. The level of hate felt by radicals is right where it always was, and the support for the actions of radicals is almost exactly where it was before the wars. The only thing that's changed is the amount of coverage, and of course - the battlefield on which things are playing out.

By the way, I can't remember the name of the study I cited, but the source was Dr. Mansoor Moaddel. He is Professor of Sociology in the Department of Sociology, Anthropology, and Criminology at Eastern Michigan University in Ypsilanti, Michigan. He can be reached at Soc_Moaddel@online.emich.edu

DickHardman

whoa wait a minute.

"Nobody was paying attention, so it wasn't really that bad."

when did i say that????

DickHardman

so you are saying that launching wars in iraq and afghanistan, bombing muslim holy sites, and having pictures of our troops abusing iraqis broadcast around the world actually did not increase muslim anger and muslim extremism???

Tom Yum

What about the images of Muslim extremists crashing jet planes into the twin towers of the world trade center - killing residents from 114 different countries, with atleast 1,000 of them Muslims themselves.

Why is this overlooked?

Or the video beheadings of Daniel Pearl, a contractor?

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Mike Brewer

It gave them a different reason to be mad, but they were mad already. It might have increased it some, but the situation already existed on a massive scale. Look at the way most extremist groups have written their charters, and you'll see that they change with the winds. One day, they're made about Israel, the next, they're mad about the US in Saudi. My point is that if we hadn't gone to Iraq and Afghanistan, they'd have found something else to be pissed about.

The thing that many (including, apparently, you) have missed is that the reason nothing came to a head before 9/11 is that we were ignoring the situation. 9/11 proved that terrorism was now willing to come to us, and it did that before any naked Iraqi pictures.

Compare the view shared by roughly 80% of American Muslims (http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...cairs_sta.html) that violence is never justified in response to words. You will also find if you look that most Americans are woefully short on their estimates of how many Muslims in the global community support violence.

In the end, yes, our presence in the Middle East has pissed off Muslims, and now they have a battlefield to focus their anger on. But that anger was stewing all along, for a host of other reasons that may or may not have been real.

Here, in fact, is a short list of terrorist attacks prior to our invasion.

1968 Robert Kennedy assassinated
1972 Munich Olympics Sep-5,1972 (Black September)
1976 Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976
1979 Iran Hostage Crisis, Nov. 4, 1979 444 days
1979 Grand Mosque Seizure, Nov 20,1979
1981 Assassination of Egyptian President, Oct 6,1981
1982 Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister, Sept 14, 1982
1983 Bombing of US Embassy in Beirut6, April 18,1983
1983 Bombing of Maring Barricks, Beruit, Oct 23,1983
1984 Hizballah Restaurant Bombing, April 12,1984
1985 Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, Nov 23,1985
1985 Rome Airport murders
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver murdered
1985 Achille Lauro hijacking, Homacidal maniac lived in saddams Iraq
1986 Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986
1988 Pan Am 747 Flight 103 Bombing, Lockerbie, 100's murdered
1988 Berlin Discoteque Bombing, Dec 21,1988
1992 Bombing in Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17,1992
1993 Attempted Assassination of Pres. Bush Sr., April 14,1993
1993 First World Trade Center bombing, February 26th, 7 Killed, Hundreds injured, Billions
1994 Air France Hijacking, Dec 24,1994
1995 Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan, Mar 8,1995
1995 Saudi Military Installation Attack, Nov 13, 1995
1995 Kashmiri Hostage taking, July 4,1995
1996 Khobar Towers attack
1996 Sudanese Missionarys Kidnapping, Aug 17,1996
1996 Paris Subway Explosion, Dec 3,1996
1997 Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, Sept 4, 1997
1997 Yemeni Kidnappings, Oct 30,1997
1998 Somali Hostage taking crisis, April 15,1998
1998 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Peru, Jan 15, 1998
1998 U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1998 U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1999 Plot to blow up Space Needle (thwarted)
2000 USS Cole attacked, many U.S. Navy sailors murdered
2000-2003 Intifada against Israel - 100's dead and injured
2000 Manila Bombing, Dec 30,2000
2001 4 Commercial airliners hijacked, 250+ murdered
2001 World Trade Center attacked, 2800+ murdered
2001 Flight 93 murders
2001 Pentagon attacked, 180+ murdered
2002 Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and murdered
2002 Philippines American missionary, Filipino nurse killed
2002 July 4, El Al attack Los Angeles LAX, several murdered
2002 Bali bombing - 200 dead, 300 injured
2002 Yemen, French Oil Tanker attacked
2002 Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait
2002 Washington D.C. sniper
2002 Russian Theater attacked, 100+ dead
2002 Nigerian riots against Miss World Pageant, 200 dead, dozens injured
2002 Mombasa Hotel Attacked, 12 dead, dozens injured
2002 Israeli Boeing 757 attacked by missiles, fortunately no one injured
2002 August Hotel bombing in Jakarta, Indonesia. 12 dead, dozens injured.
2003 Rusian concert bombing
2003 Phillipines airport and market bombing
2003 Foiled SAM plot in the USA
2003 UN Baghdad HQ Bombing

You will see that Daniel Pearl is the only murder on the whole list that happened in the "epicenter" of our wars. I guess the rest was just background noise?

More to follow...

DickHardman

who were those specific extremists and high jackers trained and funded by???

are you telling me that moderate muslims didnt condemn 9/11??