Mike Brewer

Hey Dick,
This is in preparation for that magazine you're about to receive. There are some seriously curiosity piquing articles in there about some of the roots of Nazi-Islamist ties. Thought you might like to discuss some of these:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=26e_1206971505

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=41a_1191115329

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cc8_1178411000

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1e5_1191108303

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=92e_1191111813

Mike Brewer

An interesting side note before we get going on this one -

I have found every one of these videos (and a whole bunch more that are even more negatively slanted) searching under the exact keywords:

"Peace Islam Muslim Non-Violent"

My goal was to research the assertions in one of the articles you'll read that hypothesized that moderate Muslims would never really have any voice unless they found a way to organize themselves into legitimate bodies. The article mentions that while there are many individuals speaking out against radicalism, there are very few (if any) credible groups made up of Muslims from within the respected circles of Islam that do so.

In searching for peaceful, moderate Muslims that advocate co-existence and non-violence, I found almost nothing at all. Both Muslim and non-Muslim websites advocated the same sorts of violence, same treatment of women, same hatred of Jews, and the same overwhelming theme of Jihad to exert and establish political control over all non-Muslims.

Is it possible that people have remained blind to this kind of threat for too long? I mean, where are the peaceful, moderate voices? Why do they have so little influence compared with the terrorists and radicals out there?

Mike Brewer

Here's some of the only stuff I found as far as peaceful groups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7MNO0rtPLI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIoFw...eature=related

Unfortunately, they're seen as crackpots by many Muslim authorities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t28rr...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VJnN...eature=related

There is absolutely no tolerance of dissent, and Muslims use the same terminology (Jihad against them) when dealing with them as they would about the Jews or Christians.

Here's a devotee's response to the attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM8qy...eature=related

jubaji

It may be a difficult way to structure the search. Its always easier to identify groups with an extreme agenda than to find identifiable 'groups' of average folks who are just livin' their lives and not involved in some radical organization or movement or other.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

Mike Brewer

Agreed. Search engines are difficult to work out so that you get the results you meant to get. A little like negotiating with the devil in that respect. What you get resembles what you asked for, but there are always catches and caveats you didn't expect.

Any idea how to find better results? And by that, I of course mean - have you found any better results?

TTEscrima

I thought this video from Queen Rania was interesting.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TFf897bUW2Y

jubaji

The only 'better' results I've found are entirely unscientific. Just the actual people I've known and worked with.

__________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts.

DickHardman

heres a guy named yuesef hamza who is a muslim who speaks out against extremism. he has a few videos on liveleak.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=676_1187746469

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dda_1187816654

Mike Brewer

A lot of that Stereotype project is interesting. Good finds.

Plus, I'll just go right on ahead and say it...she's hot.

Mike Brewer

http://www.zaytuna.org/index.asp

The link above is Hamza Yusef's organization, the Zaytuna Institute. It's an overall great group as far as showing the ideas of integration and moderation through a Muslim lens. Unfortunately, he's widely dismissed as an American convert in much of the Arab world. The very people that need to be reached most see him as something of an apostate. They call him an extremist, in fact, because he promotes such "extreme" views of getting along.

It's interesting, jubaji. I changed the keywords in my search, leaving in the words Peaceful, Peace, and Non-Violent. The only thing I changed were the religious identifiers. In other words, I changed the search to "Peaceful Christian Chritianity Non-Violent" and I got almost NO extreme, radical, violent groups. Same thing when the religious identifiers were changed to "Jew, Jewish." Tons and tons of charitable, non-violent, peace-advocating groups, and not many extremeist type groups (if any).

I wonder what the quality is that separates Islam from Judaism and Christianity in that respect.

Tom Yum

Mike, are there any examples of peacful, moderate Islamic nations in the Middle East?

Turkey is about the closest example I can think of (depsite the thing with the PKK), but I'm not certain.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

Mike Brewer

There are plenty of nations that are Islamic and which function moderately well. Malaysia comes to mind. It's 60% Muslim (the majority, obviously), and is generally very tolerant and secular. The real issue isn't whether or not governments can work, though. I think they can, but in nearly every instance, what you see is an overwhelming tendency for the extremists to organize and behave with hostile intentions and actions, while the moderates (and secular governments) can only respond as individuals or through confrontational police action. Still, even in relatively peaceful countries like Malaysia, you still see things like this all over the place.

http://www.mideastyouth.com/2007/06/...d-in-malaysia/

This is a woman who wanted to convert to Christianity and is (still?) hiding in fear for her life that other Muslims will hunt her down and kill her as an apostate. As you read the thread, check out some of the attitudes in the response posts - especially the first one. "We don't want any trouble, so screw that lady."

The attitude is prevalent everywhere. Muslims are allowed to rant and rave and carry on - with roughly 55% of them worldwide condoning (approving of) violence as a means of response to negative words regarding Islam or Muhammad. In other words, a majority of Muslims in the world today think it's okay for Muslims to use violence in response to verbal dissent. That's a very, very scary idea. Some areas, such as Egypt, show that as many as 92% of Muslims believe the US is actively trying to undermine and destroy Islam as a faith! That's outrageous, of course, and it shows how very little facts and actions play into these perceptions.

(by the way, the statistics quoted here can be found at the following sites:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...e/346.php?nid=
and
http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Qatar/224720)

In other words, this means that a majority of worldwide Muslims (a total of roughly 825 million of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims) believe that violence is absolutely an acceptable response to something like a cartoon of Muhammad asking for no more suicide bombers. Please take just a minute and try to put that number in its proper perspective. The united States just recently broke the 300 million mark in terms of its population, so the number of Muslims we're talking about is nearly 3 times the total number of every man, woman, and child in this entire country. And if you read the link to the statistic, you'll see that an even higher percentage believe violence is acceptable anytime the "West interferes in a Muslim country."

(population statistics: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

What you end up with are governments that sometimes manage to function, but who constantly walk the line of crossing that majority if they choose to deal with things in a secular way, or worse - if they choose to align themselves with Western allies on a given hot topic. The hell of it all is, with widespread Muslim acceptance of violence being the majority belief, individuals on the other side don't stand a chance. I think the Queen of Jordan is one of the more admirable world leaders in the minority fight, but she has several things working against her - not the least of which being that she's a "her" to begin with.

Most experts, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, believe that any lasting solution is going to have to come from within Islam. No outside government or power is going to impose peace. The thing that worries me is that any peace that occurs will be something more like a time-out rather than a true peace. The radicals afre just far more organized and determined than the peace advocates. Even if peace is designed and implemented by the moderates, how long before the radicals again organize, rise up, and stir the pot with violence and intolerance?

DickHardman

ELDORADO, Texas - Sect leaders at a polygamist compound in West Texas refused Saturday to let authorities search a temple for a teenage girl whose report of abuse led to the raid, and authorities said they were preparing "for the worst."

If no agreement is reached with sect leaders, authorities will forcibly remove the sect's followers "as peaceably as possible," Allison Palmer, a prosecutor in Tom Green County, told the San Angelo Standard-Times.

Medical workers are being sent "in case this were to a go in a way that no one wants," Palmer said. Law enforcers are "preparing for the worst," she said.

"Within the religion that we have encountered, their place of worship is very special to them," Palmer said. "It appears to be of great concern to them if a person from outside their congregation even attempts to step inside their place of worship."

A search warrant authorized troopers to enter the retreat, run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are looking for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.

Court documents the girl had a baby eight months ago, when she was 15.

State welfare officials on Friday removed 52 girls from the compound. Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services, said another 131 residents were removed overnight. By Saturday afternoon, 137 children and 46 women were being housed and interviewed at local community centers.

"They seem to be doing fine," Meisner told The Associated Press. Investigators remained inside the compound looking for additional children, she said.

The whereabouts of the 16-year-old mother who sparked the investigation are unknown, Meisner said. State troopers who raided the religious retreat were looking for the girl, her baby girl and 50-year-old Dale Barlow.

Under Texas law, girls younger than 16 cannot marry, even with parental approval.

Officials in Texas declined to comment Saturday on whether they had found Barlow, citing a gag order, but the man's probation officer told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona.

"He said the authorities had called him (in Colorado City, Ariz.) and some girl had accused him of assaulting her and he didn't even know who she was," said Bill Loader, a probation officer in Arizona.

Barlow was sentenced to jail time last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

His lawyer in that case, Bruce Griffen, said he had not spoken to Barlow in a year.

The search warrant instructed officers to look for marriage records or other evidence linking her to the man and the baby. The warrant authorized the seizure of computer drives, CDs, DVDs or photos.

Those inside the retreat did not respond to requests for comment.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints broke away from the Mormon church after the latter disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

The compound sits down a narrow paved road and behind a hill that shields it almost entirely from view in town. Only the 80-foot-high, gleaming white temple can be seen on the horizon. Authorities blocked access to the gate, keeping onlookers miles away.

The 1,700-acre property had been an exotic game ranch. It is surrounded by dusty, wind-swept land where sheep are raised and mohair produced.

Eldorado (pronounced el-dor-AY'-do) is a two-stoplight town of fewer than 2,000 people and located nearly 200 miles northwest of San Antonio. It consists of a cluster of government buildings, a couple churches and a few blocks of houses.

State officials said they did not know how many people lived at the retreat, although local officials estimated about 150 two years ago.

The FLDS has been led by Warren Jeffs since his father died in 2002. In November, Jeffs was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.

In Arizona, Jeffs is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. He is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/...gamist_retreat

Mike Brewer

Sorry, Dick, but what the fuckk does that have to do with the thread topic?

DickHardman

religious fundamentalism exists in many forms, in many countries. not just the muslims.