Thai Bri

This is proving to be one of the best threads in a long time.

William Eriepa

You bring up some very good points Nick1_S!

So do your running for aerobic conditioning. But everyday? 3-4 times a week yes. Cant see the importance of any more general steady state running - which is what the Thais do day in day out. We are not training for the local 10K race. All this is doing is taxing the body and taking out reserves that we could put into the hard sessions later. Be specific, what are we trying to achieve?
To weigh less. The more of an endurance fighter you become, the lighter you get, which means you can fight lighter opponents. You don't wanna be 5"7 weighing 200lbs fighting against someone who is 6"8 at the same weight

EDIT: I personally run 3 times a week, with sprint intervals. I perfer to get my endurance from my circut training, but running really works the respitory (spelling?) system.

Nick1_S

Well, this is developing into a good thread. Different opinions are always good, we are all here to learn, yes!?

William, you say training up to 6 days is ok. I would agree with this for top condition athletes at profesional level only. In other sports, which is where most of my knowledge comes from, you would do different things on different days, and morning/afternoons. This allows you to train up to 6 days, but altering which energy system or fitness component you are training. This way you are allowing recovery of one while doing another (up to a point). So you could do your pad work in the morning, followed by some weights while you are still warm. The emphasis is, do the most important one 1st - padwork, followed by the strength work. Strength is important, but not as important as developing fighting fitness/technique.
Top level swimmers employ this method. They dont want to do the swim after the weights as they would swim 'tired' and their technique would suffer. So they do the sport first, then the secondary stuff after.

All that running still bothers me though. Twice a day 6 days a week with no or little variation. I know its typically a few miles only, but it all adds up. Your answer about running to lose weight is probably correct for a lot of the fighters. But, following a sensible diet and training 6 days a week, you should be at a sensible weight (low body fat). Bearing in mind this is coming from other sports where weight is not so critical. I suppose you want to be the heaviest you can be for the category, to make ensure your not giving way kg.s to your opponent. All this is a trade off I suppose. If you were to lean, you could be losing muscle at the expense of power, or too dehyrdated which will affect your performance. I did see fighters skipping in full tracksuits to sweat there way down to the weight. I suppose they then spend the rest of the day hydrating?

About the rest periods. I suppose lactic acid was a bad example. As you say, this can take hours to be removed. A better indication of recovery is heart rate. In running/cycling/rowing etc, we have traditionally trained for example 2mins hard, 3mins rest, then repeat up to 3 times per set. Then perform more sets as you adapt. This is good for anerobic all out efforts. This has been a good guidline to work with in the past. Now, however, we are encouraged to work on heartrate due to the emergence of HR monitors. So work at a specified intensity for a certain duration, then wait until you heartrate has gone back down to a desired level. This indicates a good recovery. Then do your work again. This ensures each work set is maintained at good quality. No point starting again if you have not recovered enough - heart rate, breathing, byproducts, etc.

I agree one should be able to kick well and high witrhout warmup. But nonetheless, a warm body is better than a cold one, and the risk of injury is much less on a warm body.

Think you have summed it up well here.

I personally have found coming from a purely aerobic background, that Thaiboxing is hard for me. I do my weights, running and pad work but find ring sparring very taxing. I know its a taxing sport but this does limit my potential. I try to relax in the clinch and generally during exchanges but come out blowing really hard. I tend to recover enough between rounds but feel fatigued as soon as the fight restarts. Never seem to be able to get as tired when training as in the actual fight. I geuss some of it is nervous energy which decreases with experience
This has completely dictated the way in which I fight. I tend to be technical and reactive, landing only telling blows I know will land. I tend to evade and counter, block counter and go loose in the clinch. Even then I am exhausted after 30secs!

Maybe this is why I am looking at new ways to train that may help me!

Nick1_S

I have also been on the end of some brutal advice with regards to flexibilty.

I have trained with loads of ppl. Some who are naturally flexible. One guy was so flexible that he had problems with knee/anke joints because he had a condition where his ligaments were so lax. Some who were flexible because they stretched a lot and others like me who are naturally inflexible, even though I stretch 3-4 times a week. (Perhaps I need it every day?). Have heard reports about runners and cyclists where their muscles shorten due to repeated contractions. Maybe this has not helped.

Anyway, from the books I have read (Thomas Kurz - Stretching Scientifically, I think, etc), the emphasis is on relaxing into the stretch. Allowing yourself to stretch slowly, each time letting the tension receptors in your muscles get used to the tension. Forcing a stretch actually brings into play a protection mechanism in the muscle that stops you stretching more so is counter producutive. And apparently balistic stretching is not soo good iether, apart from extreme cases.

I have had instructors explain that they dont believe in these new methods and that you have to be in pain to get flexible. You have to 'rip your muscles, its the only way' one said! I have had instructors push me so hard and even standing on my knees when I am sitting down with soles of feet together. Now that really hurt!

What are your opinions on this?

billywest1924

http://www.zatopek.freeserve.co.uk/ do yourself a favor get this manuel! the thai's are tough but are monumentally overtrained. how many of them do you see competeing past the age of 30? hell, 25?-not many! too much wear and tear, guys that train 6 days a week 2x a day are the ones that you see with the torn rotator cuff's, slipped disk's,& blown knee's, i could go on and on-tim this would definately benifit reggie's training, i have never seen anything so sports specific-food for thought people!

S.Anucha

Dude you'd be amazed at the amount of Thais who smoke and hold current titles in Bangkok. Thais are very different, Thaiboxing to them is what football is to the English. It's in their blood.

But yeah I do agree, there can be some "modern way" things done to help build a great phyisical fitness and longer lasting strength.

I now dynamic stretch every morning, before my workout and before I go to bed. It helps immensly! The best form of stretching for any Thaiboxer in my opinion.

I did learn why the Thais retire so early, its because they spend their entire life in Thaiboxing, we start later in life so fight longer. Its nothing really to do with injuries as all the retired Boxers I know are in very good shape and have no bone disabilities or bad health.

But I know a lot of camps do mix old and new methods. I used to get so frustrated with one of my old coaches, not in Thailand, because it seemed he hadnt a clue about stretching, he would have us sit in a passive stretch for minutes then after that session have us kicking!! you just feel like saying "hey man you're going to fucking hurt us here".

So for anerobic fitness sprints? and aerobic long runs?

gimme some details please and thanx.

__________________
"...Don't worry. When you are in the ring, you're all by yourself. No one can help you. So, all you can do is fight. So fight! Don't back down. Like in life, no one is going to live your life. So, no one is going to fight your fight for you. Muaythai is not winning or being better than the other guy. It is learning to lose before winning and to give from your heart before receiving. In muaythai, you always win and lose. So, don't worry. (Smile)..."

Damian Mavis

Good thread, I honestly feel the Thai's over train and the majority of the camps train stupid. This upsets alot of people when I say that and the guys at my old academy would argue me blue in the face... By train stupid I mean they spend the majority of their time just training hard and pushing themselves with little put into actual fight skills training. This is why to this day I still like Lamai Muay Thai better than any other camp I've been too as they focus almost the whole 2 hour training time on fighting at various ranges (light). I learn much more and get much better by training like that then hitting the pads round after round and then hitting the bag until I puke. You're stamina can be increased without excessive cardio training, might as well use that time learning how to fight rather than wasting it by doing even more cardio.

When I was getting ready for my fight I only trained one hard session a day, ran once and did light drills working on "technique" and speed later. I also ate really well and got lots of sleep. This worked well for me and kept me strong during my training and less injured. I also took almost a full week off of any hard training before my fight to heal and get my full strength back. Peter Aerts gave me that advice on resting a week and I believe him.

As for stretching, I always told my students in TKD to do one hard stretch a week and then stretch light the rest of the week to let your body heal from the damage hard stretching does to it. I remember I used to stretch hard and painfully every day and I landed up losing flexibility due to the constant damage I was doing. Now I find it much easier to increase flexibility by doing that and also by strengthening my groin and hamstring muscles at the gym and then stretching lightly right after.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Nick1_S

Its nice to know I am not the only one who feels this way then

Yes, a rest week is good, although it should not be total rest. As the fight approaches, training should become shorter and much more intensive. This will 'taper' your training to a 'peak'. The general idea is to do the highest intensity you can handle for short periods. This produces a massive overload. Of course, this takes a lot out of you and the body needs a lot of rest. I would do this in the final weeks before a fight. In the week right before, I would cut the high intensity stuff and the weights altogether and just go over a few skills and do some light padwork and stretch. Maybe a bit of skipping to keep the body moving. During this week your body will recover from all the strenous activity it has been doing. Infact it will over-recover or overcompensate and you will be super fit to fight!

I have experienced when tapering that your body is just dying to get going hard again. It gets hungy for the hard training thats been taken away in the final week. This is ideal and means your fitness is 'peaking'.

I am interested to know what exercises you do in the gym for your groin and hamstings to strengthen them. What stretches do you do on your legs Damian?

Damian Mavis

I use the "girly" machines to strengthen my groin and outside of my thighs. You know... the machines you see the chicks in the tight outfits always using to trim their legs. One is were you squeeze the levers together with your thighs (for the groin) and the other you push the levers out with your knees (for the side of your thighs). I go into a light stretch right after and it really helps make me flexible as well as prevent injury by keeping my muscles strong. It helps me kick cold too and not always need to warm up so much to kick high. I still warm up but at least this helps me if I ever need to kick in street defence which is something I always thought was stupid... why learn kicks you can't do when you actually need them because you're not stretched and warmed up?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

William Eriepa

You bring up some very good points Nick1_S!

you would do different things on different days, and morning/afternoons.
Yup. I follow a similar way of training. I believe one should train in order of speed>strength>endurance.

Top level swimmers employ this method. They dont want to do the swim after the weights as they would swim 'tired' and their technique would suffer. So they do the sport first, then the secondary stuff after.
Exactly. Practicing tired technique would only develop tired technique. Heh, thats what I was trying to say before, about how when one is fatigued, they are no longer improving technique.

Now, however, we are encouraged to work on heartrate due to the emergence of HR monitors. So work at a specified intensity for a certain duration, then wait until you heartrate has gone back down to a desired level. This indicates a good recovery. Then do your work again. This ensures each work set is maintained at good quality. No point starting again if you have not recovered enough - heart rate, breathing, byproducts, etc.
An excellent point.

William Eriepa

You bring up some very good points Nick1_S!

Have heard reports about runners and cyclists where their muscles shorten due to repeated contractions. Maybe this has not helped.
Most probably due to the range of motion that is carried out during running and cycling, and as you said the repeated contactions of these less than full range of motion.

Anyway, from the books I have read (Thomas Kurz - Stretching Scientifically, I think, etc), the emphasis is on relaxing into the stretch. Allowing yourself to stretch slowly, each time letting the tension receptors in your muscles get used to the tension. Forcing a stretch actually brings into play a protection mechanism in the muscle that stops you stretching more so is counter producutive. And apparently balistic stretching is not soo good iether, apart from extreme cases.
Well when doing isometrics, you're meant to tense the muscles opposed to the ones being stretched, and this lets you stretch that little bit more, while also strengthing your muscles in that stretched position. Try it. Do a hamstring stretch and tense your quads, you'll see the gain. You need only hold the tension for about 10 seconds though, depending on your flexibility.

William Eriepa

Your bring up some very good points S.Anucha!

So for anerobic fitness sprints? and aerobic long runs?

Why not join em together. Have a long run with sprint intervals .

SOUTHPAW

O.K....this is a very interesting thread, with lots of valid opinions. There are several important elements to keep in mind regarding training.1. Remember that boxing is a skill sport, therefore we must train for the exact skills we will use, and we must be relatively "fresh" for this training in order to have good technique and to properly develop the neuromuscular pathways involved.2. It has often been said that "speed beats strength" which may be true but speed seldom beats speed and strength. This means that if all other variables are equal the stronger fighter wins. Hence we must do weight training of some form or prepare for losing. 3. Also, you need anaerobic endurance to be successful in the ring. You must run!! And not just a leisurely jog either, you must run intervals and sprints that mimic the work/rest ratios of a match.4. The final point to keep in mind is that while needing a variety of training to be successful, there are only so many hours in a day and days in a week. The challenge is to train in an efficient, sport specific manner and not overtrain. I am living proof that you can train hard AND last in this sport. I started boxing at age 10. I am now 33 and have been in MT for a while now, and have continued to box all along. I have learned a lot about training along the way and have had to wade through a lot of "old school" and just plain bad advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about scientific training should check out Rossboxing.com...there is a lot of info about some of the areas that I just touched on. Good luck to all and TRAIN HARD!!!

Infinite4Light7

it was cool to be reading through this and not thinking about how i am now more stupid than i was before i came to the fourm like i usually am!

Infinite4Light7

could anybody reccomend any good beginner thai boxing books to learn technique and such?