Thread: Terrible Technique

You commpletely failed to address the MT use of the clinch, elbows, and KNEES. What is your TKD guy going to do when MT guy crashes in, grabs his neck and starts thumping knees into the ribs and body?

And... well that's all for now

Muay Thai has historically had complicated techniques, but thoses techniques were eliminated from the ring sport partly because they were 'too dangerous' and partly because they just plain didn't work well (maybe other reasons, too, I'm not an expert on the evolution). When I say didn't work well, what I mean is 'didn't work well relative to the number of hours required too make them effective'.
It's true Thai boxers don't bother with many variations of kicks, but I think is this because the Thais feel that the thai round kick and the foot jab - or 'push kick' are the most efficient kicking weapons. Why should I devote the dozens of hours of training needed to get a jump-spinning-hook-kick fast enough to use, when a round kick to the head achieves the same result with less risk and is still faster.
Arguably, the Thai round kick is somewhat slower than the TMA round kick, but it also much heavier. A lightening fast snap kick just isn't going to hurt a trained fighter much whereas a 'slow' Thai kick will. The Thai reasoning here is plain - 'why bother to throw a kick that won't do any damage?'
Then to one of the strongest aspects of Muay Thai - the clinch. The most damaging technique in the Thai arsenal is the knee. A thai can fight at punch/kick range like a TKD fighter, but whereas the TKD fighter has to maintain that range, the Thai stylist can also fight much closer with knees and elbows. If the fight is not going well from the outside (or even if it is) the Thai fighter can move into the short range and grab the opponents neck then begin throwing knees and elbows all the while twisting and pulling on the opponent in order to keep him off balance. Thai Boxers spend many hours working the clinch.
So, Thai boxers use a limited number simple techniques rather than many complicated ones. They also use their knees better than any other art I've heard of. They also train harder and fight more than any other striking art - except possibly boxing, might be a tie there.
Finally, you state that the only thing Thai boxers have on other arts is thier training regimen. I agree, thai boxers have learned that the best way to fight well is to train hard. It's not fancy kicks, or open hand techniques that make a fighter effective, it's plain old toughness and conditioning coupled with effective blocks and attacks. That conditioning is part of the art of Muay Thai and not part of the art of (TKD etc.).
Until TKD/TMA practioners start training the right way (to fight, that is), arguments about their relative effectiveness remain theoretical only. The fact is - Thai boxers consistently defeat TKD fighters where the rules allow both arts to use all techniques. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the exception does not make the rule.





As an aside - This is a response to the suggestion that Muay Thai technique is terrible, not an attack on traditional martial arts generally.

First of all, I don't usually believe in feeding trolls.... I leave them to the hands of my Big Billy Goat Gruff, who is much larger than I....

"I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible."

Well, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. But, MT Techniques are 'just plain terrible' as compared to what?

"I mean there kicks are slow."

What Muay Thai have you been watching??? Are you sure it was Muay Thai? Muay Thai is based off of SPEED! Anyone who tried to tell you differently does not truly know their Muay Thai.

"They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks."

MT fighters use what works: Round Kicks & Front Kicks. Side Kicks, Back Kicks, and Hook Kicks are also included in the Muay Thai arsenal, as well as as Crescent Kicks and Snap Kicks, but these are RARELY employed because under fire they have not proven to be very combat effective. In other words, you are just as likely to get Knocked Out as to Score a Knockout.

"They have no open handed techniques hence the gloves."

Uh, no. The above should read: Sport Muay Thai uses gloves, hence no open handed techniques. Muay Thai was not born in the ring. There are PLENTY of open-handed techniques. Some of the "open-hand" techniques have been adapted to the ring anyway. Ever heard of a clinch?

"I would love to find a taekwondo school with that same hardcore approach to training. If one exists I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai but there training is severely lacking."

When you find that school, join and train with them. Then feel free to come to any one of our gyms for a friendly sparring match.

Brooks (Khun Kao)

I'm Going to weigh in on this although I'm not exactly sure what side of this discussion I'm on.

first I will not fault MT technique, they are effective at close range. the further out the less effective they are but that is okay, they like to close the gap and stay there. This is where their strength lies. The style is relatively simple, Knees, elbows, and a few kicks.

MT Kicks are slow to TKD people this is a fact of life. They are not deceptive and take a very large arc to their targets. This increase the time it takes to hit the target, unlike high level, (repeat HIGH LEVEL) chambered kicks.

Conditioning makes MT exceptional. MT without the Conditioning is no more effective then any other TMA. For instance if you can't block with your shin because they are soft you will likely lose to someone who has not problem sheilding with their shin. I for instance have blocked with my shins in TKD for 20 some years and it is a great advantage because most people do not like to work on building up to take a hit on the shin. People are always kicking my shins and leaving my shin unscathed and theirs a bloody mess.

My system has every technique in MT with in it. There aren't any secrets. To say that MT technique is bad begs the question "in relation to what" and "In what way"

Now, the main difference between the too is the people who take them. At this moment in time MT is not mainstream. Fighters take up MT, soccermoms and kids aren't. TKD is mainstream. It's where the money is at so soccermoms and kids are the bulk of the students. Many hardcore fighters are not willing to train with kids or moms or in a place that has too many of them because they believe this lessens the art.

I think that MT People could learn some tricks from TKD that would help them improve their skills. I also believe that TKD can take some lessons on training from MT.

Also the world has different standards for fighters. In the US. most fighters have other jobs. They have families that they support by working somewhere and they fight and train in their free time. TKD is not made up of these people. It is mostly hobby martial artists. They do not plan on stepping into the ring, they do not plan on having to fight on a consistent basis, they do not want to take injuries in training that are as severe as a street altercation.
Much of the rest of the world has fighters that do that for a living. MT is an example. they train all day, fight and get paid and feed their families from that. In so doing they elevate their prowess as fighters. The system is made up of pro fighters, the teachers are or were pro fighters and it is taught in such a way to create pro fighters. As it becomes more mainstream others with no ring experience will open schools and because of the hype of the pro fighters their schools will grow and turn out more MT people who do not fight in the ring. In 20 years MT will be a completely different animal. That is the way of things. At that point it will be the exception that great fighters are MT fighters and not the rule.

Right now someone who says they are a MT fighter is given great respect as a good fighter without much question as to their true ability. everyone assumes they train under good instructors and are on their way to be great MT fighters. But even now you have people who go to MT class once a week. train for a few hours, maybe even miss a few weeks and they claim they are fighters.
If such a person was to go against a training TKD blackbelt they would get beat. Realize I said a training TKD blackbelt. not a soccer mom. realize also there is a trend in martial arts for people to take blackbelt as a sign you have finished your training. In most systems it is a master of basics only, It is at the beginning of your true training.

If you would like to test out who is better then do it fairly. take two comparable MT fighters and Train one with some TKD material that would be of use and see if it does not improve their fights. Or take to TKD fighters and add MT and see what happens.

It's like anything can you add value. There is value in MT. There is Value in TKD you just have to know were to look.

I would ask for a better description of how MT techinque is lacking. Simple to say that it sucks is insufficient. You must explain why it sucks.

No open hands does not mean their technique sucks, it means that there are a lack of those techniques.

Lower speed power kicks does not mean the technique sucks as most of them perform those types of kicks correctly. In ATA we call the thai kick a PPCT kick or fluid shockwave kick.
The lack of higher speed higher level TKD kicks is even seen in TKD itself. It's lack of use in MT also does not mean their technique sucks. only that they have not been trained or choose not to use those types of kicks.

end rant

I'd like to give some kudos to bvermillion at this point for successfully posting an intelligent style vs style type thread - Its tried often, seldom achieved.

"Terrible technique is probably a little harsh I probably should have said lacking technique."

Lacking? Coming from someone who obviously has not trained in Muay Thai.

"TMA's use all the same techniques as mt"

False statement. Again, this is coming from someone who obviously not trained in Muay Thai. Anyone can throw a roundhouse kick, thrusting front kick, elbow, knee, or punch. That does not make it "the same technique" as Muay Thai.

"why doesn't muay thai incorporate or use regularly the followin: hook kicks, crescent kicks. axe kicks, front snap kicks"

Didn't I already answer this???? Hook Kicks, Crescent Kicks, Axe Kicks, Front Snap Kicks.... They ARE part of the Muay Thai arsenal. You never see them trained with and used because they were discovered to be low percentage technniques. As in there is a low probability of effectively landing this technique without giving up a serious advantage to your opponent.

Damian Mavis, by the way, is 100% correct.

Originally Posted by bvermillion

Terrible technique is probably a little harsh I probably should have said lacking technique. I would prefer my chambered round kick as oppose to a muay thai round kick but thats not the point I was trying to get at. What I am trying to get at is that most TMA's use all the same techniques as mt and some but they don't condition there body to use them in as devastating as a way as mt stylists do. I guess I should just pose the question why doesn't muay thai incorporate or use regularly the followin: hook kicks, crescent kicks. axe kicks, front snap kicks and just about any open handed technique. As hard as muay thai stylist train I am positive they could take the hit without the gloves on. Like I said before most of these guys are hardcore.

Dude www.muaythai.com you should get just a couple of techniques on this main page.

Muay Thai - "be like a snake" <--- that is a quote from my Kru in Thailand. Thaiboxers move slowly and pace accordingly in and out of the ring, fighting slow but always moving with relaxed muslces and fluidity, striking fast and hard, like a snake stalks its prey, it moves slow never taking its eyes of its prey then when it strikes! man it comes down hard and fast and that prey doesnt know what the hell hit it.... "be like a snake"

As for kicking, Muay Thai roundhouse is a very nice kick indeed!! when done right is both fast and very hard. Master Sken is a TKD specialist along with Master Toddy, both are now teaching Muay Thai and live for Muay Thai.

Techniques, TKD may have flash and stylee but in a fight mate you had better drop the flash because thet shit simply doesnt work.

Muay Thai is pure technique and relys totally on delivery of technique and your strength and stanima. Some guys (including myself ) can kick 10 full power kicks in a mater of seconds, not just leg kicks but full power kicks using the hip!

Go learn some Muay Thai then criticise its technique when you actually learn how to deliver some techniques from Muay Thai.

Empty hand system of Muay Thai, haha... man you really havnt a clue do you? I think there are something like 120 empty hand techniques in Muay Thai not to mention the locks, throws, ground work, trapping, clinch grapple, breaks, knives, swords, sticks, batons, improvised weapons... man its a very full fighting system indeed, ground work isnt BJJ but it works for self defense.... Thaiboxing is practiced in a ring! thats how you get good, by fighting, you cant expect two fighters to kill each other, well they did before 1930's, but dude if that was happening now I am afraid I'd be only a spectator and not a fighter. Only now for many people its more a sporting hobby so they dont care much for the rest of it.