natb19

I'm not convinced of Colonel Amnat's experience in Chaiya, as I have been told when I was training in Baan chang Thai that he came and watched some demos/training, Ajarn Lek also went and taught the army on several occasions with Colonel Amnat present. Maybe someone can clarify if he had learnt Chaiya elsewhere? (I only have the one source after all)

I'd like to hear/see more on the Korat system, from Vincent's description it sounds interesting, and I'd like to see the similarities/differences with Chiaya. He highlights one of the problems of not exploring past the basics of these styles, they can be perceived as simplistic, especially as there are not many who can truly demonstrate the concepts at a deeper level.

__________________

www.mymuaythaichaiya.com

---

george stando

Just want to clear something up, I am not in the same league in any way shape or form as vincent nor have the same skills or physical abilities, I am just someone trying to learn. I am happy he has helped me with expanding my knowledge and training in thailand. He is kind enough to let me use some of his answers to things.

I dont know anything about general amnats backround in muay chaiya, but I dont think it comes from watching ajarn leks class, watching classes would not produce any understanding this is sort of the problem with the chaiya guys they all think someone is stealing something from them, THERE are alot of EXCELLENT muay chaiya instructors as I state that are unknown and can be accessed especially by a thai person, alot of which were directly trained by kru khetr and still teach. I would simply ask him. I didnt train with him on any chaiya so I dont know. But I assume he did train though I never heard him say he was an expert of muay chaiya.

Also Vincents muay chaiya is from the direct teachers and sources as i met some of his teachers and not the result of his association with gen amnat that i know for sure.

---

natb19

Sorry George I think there has been a misunderstanding.

I think I was connecting Khun Khao's references to Col.Amnat with his comment on Lions walk, and was merely enquiring as to whether anyone new if Col.Amnat had more experience with Chaiya than that which I'd heard at Baan Chang Thai. You guys have trained with him, and I thought u may have known.

I don't think it warranted an attack on 'the chaiya guys'. As for 'they all think someone is stealing something from them', Ajarn Lek has no problem with people 'stealing' anything from him, as long as they get it right! I've seen many examples of people imitating the surface of the style without capturing any of the depth, and making it look weak and ineffective. I enjoy seeing people demonstrating good examples of the style (any style in fact), and if someone picks up the essence even from watching a single class, then all the better!

__________________

www.mymuaythaichaiya.com

---

Khun Kao

While I can't comment specifically on Colonel Amnat's background, I do know he trained with Por.Kru Samai Mesamarn of the Buddhai Sawan Institute. He taught MuayBoran as part of the Krabi Krabong curriculum. I cannot speak on how in-depth this training was or what MuayBoran systems were included in the training, but at least it's something...

The Colonel has obviously trained under other instructors as well, but I cannot speak to who they were or how in-depth his training was.

__________________
Kru Brooks C. Miller
GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors
USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA
http://khunkao.com/

---

george stando

My comment wasnt an attack on any chaiya guys other than that is one of the problems with the instructors, each one says they taught this guy and that guy and he doesnt know anything if they didnt train with them. The point I am making and continue to make is that there are ample non commercial, unknown muay chaiya teachers who are excellent at the complete system and many people have accessed them to train and learn the complete system as it was handed down by either ajarn khetr, or ajarn tong or both. If you take the words of one teacher without research or without knowledge of each situation then you are limited to that.

We are just discussing things here and expressing opinions that is mine on the topic and something that came out very loudly with the killer/praeng situation, when people make these pronouncements its so myopic and limited it shows truly a lack of knowledge and depth of knowledge and speaks for itself and in the end brings down the system.

---

george stando

I dont think anything on the muay front Gen Amant does has anything to do with the buddhai sawan teachings and never heard he anything to do actually with the buddhai sawan but alot of military guys passed through there so its quite possible. He has done alot of research and training so he is going about it in a way to show the lines of what is common and what is different from the old styles and how the old manuals play into it which is difficult to translate and explain. at least thats what I got from his teachings..again just my own limited opinion for what its worth. Also of great importance, HE RESPECTS all the systems and teachers and places great importance on them, so its something we see little of in the muay chaiya community. He has a great love of thai martial arts and he steers clear of the politics which was impressive to me.

---

Tee Sok

Also according to my even more limited knowledge on this, I heard that Gen. Amnat did a lot of research and is one of the few people who can fully understand the principles that govern muay and war strategies. Again, a clear glimpse of this can be viewed in his dvds.

---

george stando

Personally from my own point of view and this is not about muay chaiya or whatever martial art, but when one says someone "stole" techniques from someone, its reeks of utter bullshit to me. Who steals techniques and for what reason? All those techniques are muay chaiya and those techs are taught by teachers beyond lek or praeng and neither man is the sole proprietor of those techniques and thus this comes back to the initial problem that occurred here that one teacher is trying to dominate over the other over ownership or superiority when none have proven anything to anyone outside of their little communities. Its all petty non sense of little minds.

---

natb19

George, I agree with you and the others on the principle of bitching about people 'stealing' techniques, after all it's all just about fighting. You where the one who brought it up.

As for "All those techniques are muay chaiya and those techs are taught by teachers beyond lek or praeng and neither man is the sole proprietor of those techniques and thus this comes back to the initial problem that occurred here that one teacher is trying to dominate over the other over ownership or superiority when none have proven anything to anyone outside of their little communities." who brought them into this? I mention something that I heard (in my already admitted closed box) and you start ranting about stealing, this teacher, that teacher? What do you mean by "little communities" anyway, and how would they prove themselves?

As for my limited view, I already acknowledged that and was why I posed the original question about Gen.Amnat, maybe I could have phrased it better. I am in the process of trying to learn more about Chaiya and other forms of muay thai, outside of the Bangkok box of which I've learnt in. If anyone can point me in the direction of other teachers of any styles, then I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm waiting for Tee Sok to get back from Had Yai, so I can check out the Gen.Amnat vids, I'm quite looking forward to it

__________________

www.mymuaythaichaiya.com

---

george stando

I am not going to belabor this point as I made myself pretty clear. All these instructors play in their backyards and have limited scope and dont extend outside to compete to talk and exchange like other martial artists do. They make up their own histories and stories and the students parrot them without looking into it and researching it and experiencing things. You can see especially here on defend.net that this has been ongoing with the multitude of topics on this same thing with just different guys coming in here and there. Like i said and whats apparent, to those who want to venture into anythign like this, caveat emptor! For me I have expended too much energy here already. Good luck to all in their search for truth and honesty and in the end the truth always prevails.

---

Tant01

Sometimes I wonder at the many diverse opinions but as you say... Truth tends to prevail.

As for me, I know not a thing about any of the gentlemen mentioned nor you or the apparent antoginists here... Frankly I could care less... No disrespect intended!

It seems more and more clear that my own limited exposure to silat was as much a blessing as a curse... There was no lineage or style NAME at all. I was not told a name for any THING to do except the most fundamental words for some action or trick or trap. Destruction, cutting, "deanimation"... It was all quite sanguinary. It's butchery and mayhem at it's finest.

Who cares about who says what about who(m)? In the end it matters very little. We are all destined to destruction. For now we have some choice in who we wish to be and that is all.

Adonijah!

Peace and courage!

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

---

fire cobra

Around 15 years ago i asked my teacher(a thai national) about Muay Loburi,and Muay Chaiya,Korat etc etc,his answer to me was...listen its just Thai People fighting dont think about it!,still seems like a good answer to be,although im still curious!.

---

george stando

we get a little carried away on these threads but I think alot of interesting stuff gets squeezed out of them and fire cobra thats an interesting quote because essentially it comes to what is used in the fight and how to make it work. The older styles from my own limited exposure seem bigger systems with alot of techs but in fighting of course what works tends to get played. Tant01 your point is well taken too. I think in surviving some of these styles they tend to go into a more classical every move has a specific name, a specific exact gesture and movement which is ok because its about keeping them alive I understand that so alot of dispute comes in the form of who is correct and authentic. Credit is due to the older masters of muay chaiya as well as the new because they really kept it alive and kept alot of it going where the others mostly died away from my understanding or with a minimal of practitioners left. Probably a better, healthier thread would be on specific things of the systems as fire cobra asked and I wont interrupt anymore even if its killer!

---

Tee Sok

I agree, the last posts here have clarified things a bit. I like fire cobra's quote too, I remember he quoted that in an older post as yesterday my teacher said that when you fight Muay is Muay. Then people give Muay names and stick to them. I think that's when problems can start if you haven't got an open mind.

Hey Nathan I will call you when I leave Had Yai.

---

fire cobra

Glad you guys liked my teacher Khun Narong Sudsavarts quote,he is a very down to earth person and very much a "fighter",his own teacher was Pol Prapradaeng and im very proud of my lineage!,so i like to quote his words when i can.

---