Ontario rules for muay thai styles competition - Page 2

chalambok · 03-08-2005, 11:28 PM

My question is: what the hell is 'pyronian skepticism'? My guess has to be to burn anyone who disagrees. And, in an honest effort to see if I can piss more people off, do you suppose Pol Pot and his ilk would claim to have been using Krabi-Krabong when they were putting the hoe to the neck of half the Khmer populace?

I personally think WEI_KHRU may have tapped into an historical enigma which has no verifiable 'truth'. You are all correct. As historical events moved across South and SouthEast Asia, many peoples were displaced and many wars were fought, consequently there was mixing of everything, cultures, style, families, religions...you name it. Even the Vietnamese at one time could lay claim to significant parts of the region. Mr Inosanto once said in a seminar I attended that a valid historical argument could be posited, and possibly 'proven' that all of the Indian martial arts were descended from Alexander the Great. Maybe we can get someone from a 'Greek' fraternity to weigh in on that.

academian · 03-09-2005, 12:05 AM

If we really wanted to be particular we could trace all of this back to the tokarian people

Khun Kao · 03-09-2005, 09:01 AM

Wei_Khru....

Ok, you got me there. I did misquote you. You did not say the Thai's "stole" Muay Khmer. You said the Thai's learned it from the Khmer and exploited it. I took that to mean you were implying that the Thai's stole it, because that is what it seemed to me you were saying. I do apologize for misinterpreting your statement.

I can see what you're saying, and unforutnately I don't know THAT MUCH about Thai history to be able to say whether or not it is the truth, though the timeline does support part of what you say. If the Thai tribe which later became the Kingdom of Sukhothai (later to become Siam, then Thailand) was originally part of the Khmer Kingdom, you may have a point.

But, if that IS true, that the Thai people separated from the Khmers to form their own kingdom/nation, and the martial arts that the Khmer's practiced evolved to become Muay Thai, then how is it the Khmers (Cambodians) feel that the Thai's "stole" or "exploited" the art? After all, by what you are saying, the Thai's separated from the Khmer's, but were once part of the Khmer Kingdom. To me, that means it was their art as well.

Plus, whose to say who learned the art from who? How do we know the art did not originate amongst the ethnic Thai, then spread throughout the Khmer Kingdom while the Thai were still part of that nation? How do we know that the Thai and Khmer even created the art themselves? They may have learned it from the Indians (Hindus). After all, many martial arts history books credit the "origin" of martial arts as we know them today to India, then spreading through China and beyond.

If you look at all SE Asian martial arts, they are very very similar. Vietnam, Laos, Burma, Cambodia, Phillipines..... all of these nations martial arts have very obvious similarities. Why are modern people still pressed about who did what with a martial art that they ALL shared 1000 years ago?

We don't see the Italians (Romans) up in arms about the changes to the sport of boxing since the day when they pitted gladiators strapped to granite blocks face-to-face pummeling the living shit out of one another with what were essentially brass knuckles.

I concede that based upon what you've said, and what I've further read, that its *possible* that what evolved into modern Muay Thai originated in the Khmer Kingdom. But again, I will point out that this was 1000 years ago!!! The art evolved since then and has now become a modern day sport invented by the Thai's. It seems ridiculous to me that the Cambodians (Khmers) are pressed about it.

Seems more a matter of jealousy that they did not think to add boxing rules to it and market it themselves.

This is just an opinion based upon the limited facts that I do know, and further arguments I've read from both sides of the story. I'm perfectly willing to 'agree to disagree'.

Mai Phen Rai

Khun Kao · 03-09-2005, 09:06 AM

Oh, and 'yes', you and I are talking about the same person, Vincent Giordanno (sp?) who posts as "Black Diamond Cobra".

Kijimuna · 03-09-2005, 09:29 AM

"So here's the question, what was the name before it was known as Muay Thai? Muay Siam? I dont think so..."

It was called Muay Chaiya, Muay Maa Yang, Paak Eesaan, Paak Klang, Muay Lopburi, Muay Ayuthaya, Muay Uttaradit, Paak Nuua...

All these and more were combined to create the modern Muay Thai ring sport.

Khun Kao · 03-09-2005, 10:06 AM

It was also referred to as Muay Siam. There is a boxing magazine in Thailand by the same name that has been published for at least the last 30 years, probably longer.

Garland · 03-09-2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalambok

My question is: what the hell is 'pyronian skepticism'? My guess has to be to burn anyone who disagrees. And, in an honest effort to see if I can piss more people off, do you suppose Pol Pot and his ilk would claim to have been using Krabi-Krabong when they were putting the hoe to the neck of half the Khmer populace?

I personally think WEI_KHRU may have tapped into an historical enigma which has no verifiable 'truth'. You are all correct. As historical events moved across South and SouthEast Asia, many peoples were displaced and many wars were fought, consequently there was mixing of everything, cultures, style, families, religions...you name it. Even the Vietnamese at one time could lay claim to significant parts of the region. Mr Inosanto once said in a seminar I attended that a valid historical argument could be posited, and possibly 'proven' that all of the Indian martial arts were descended from Alexander the Great. Maybe we can get someone from a 'Greek' fraternity to weigh in on that.

Pyronian skepticism is where neither argument can be substantiated with your current evidence, so you just stand back and take neither side.

SimonM · 03-10-2005, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalambok

I think SimonM is wrong. I know several fighters from Oregon who will be travelling to Vancouver BC on the 19th of March to fight full-contact, muay Thai rules. .

My bad, I meant Ontario. Why do I have to live in the pussy province?

I believe there has been some talk of changing this...

OctaviousBP · 03-11-2005, 12:07 AM

Sanctioning is possible for events through CAMTAO in Ontario. For more information, see previous post. In fact, A class fights have elbows.

SimonM · 03-12-2005, 04:56 PM

Since the moratorium has apparently been lifted. (It's dark in my cave) If any events are coming to the London-St. Thomas area let me know. I'd like to see one.

aphoap · 03-24-2005, 02:05 PM

Wei_kru,
How is the progress in forming the pradal serey tournament? I am really interested in know more about the tournament and Khmer martial arts in general. I sent you a PM but I guess you haven't read it yet. What stage are you in you research/book writing? I have been searching for info about Khmer martial arts for the half a year or so already, but not much on the internet mostly forum posts. I am glad there are fellow Khmers in Canada learning and preserving our ancient tradition and even forming a tournament. The only school in the US that I know for sure teaches Khmer martial arts in Long beach. But up here in Northern California there is none, I am stilling looking for a kru (teacher/master) asking the older folks if they know anyone that is willing to teach. All I can do now is try to emulate the moves from the pradal serey videos from Cambodia. Hope to hear from you soon, here or maybe even on a Khmer forum as many would be interested.
On side note, anyone know when the Vanishing flame book and other of that series is due. I only received one e-mail update since joining a long time ago. I suppose he is really busy. Sambo

Phatry · 04-22-2005, 07:57 PM

The martial art world needs to know the Truth: Muay Thai is_a_Khmer art.

Wei Khru, if you have any published articles or research papers about Pradal Serei, I would love to help promote it.

I currently work at KhmerConnection, www.khmer.cc, the "world's largest Khmer community website" with over "25,000 members" and is co-founder for Rajana Society, www.rajana.org, a student organization at the University of Washington with the mission to "advance Khmer arts & entertainment."

Please e-mail me in private: phatry.pan@GMAIL.COM

Thanks for your consideration!

Best, Phatry

soldier · 04-25-2005, 05:14 AM

wei kru,

can u please email asap, we need to have a chat about khmer martial arts.

marith888@hotmail.com

regards

WMTI · 07-13-2005, 04:10 PM

Id like to thank OctaviousBP for informing you of CAMTAO and my email. I do not patrol the forums regularly, and missed that topic.

yeas Muay Thai is legal in Ontario, and has been for a few years. CAMTAO is the official PSO for the sport, and conducts evetns, seminars, lecturs, etc.
the rules for Muay Thai are: all weapons are used and all pads worn. As a fighter progresses to the 10th fight the chest shield will be removed, and then at 20 the shin guards are removed. No other gear is removed. this will enable the athletes to prepare better for the advancment to professional with less risk of injury. The elbows are voluntary ( both coaches must agree to include them) for the fiorst 10 fights, afterwards all fights beyond the 10th elbows are included automatically. Pads are head gear, gloves, mouth guard, jock, chest guard elbow guards and shin guards.

Thanks again to OctaviousBP and I welcome all to email me or visit the site
www.camtao.org
it is currently undergoing some chanes so some areas are not up at the moment.

Thanks!

03-08-2005, 11:28 PM	#16 (permalink)
chalambok Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oregon City, Oregon USA Posts: 724 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	From Ontario to Cambodia in 5 posts My question is: what the hell is 'pyronian skepticism'? My guess has to be to burn anyone who disagrees. And, in an honest effort to see if I can piss more people off, do you suppose Pol Pot and his ilk would claim to have been using Krabi-Krabong when they were putting the hoe to the neck of half the Khmer populace? I personally think WEI_KHRU may have tapped into an historical enigma which has no verifiable 'truth'. You are all correct. As historical events moved across South and SouthEast Asia, many peoples were displaced and many wars were fought, consequently there was mixing of everything, cultures, style, families, religions...you name it. Even the Vietnamese at one time could lay claim to significant parts of the region. Mr Inosanto once said in a seminar I attended that a valid historical argument could be posited, and possibly 'proven' that all of the Indian martial arts were descended from Alexander the Great. Maybe we can get someone from a 'Greek' fraternity to weigh in on that.

03-09-2005, 12:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
academian Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 382 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	If we really wanted to be particular we could trace all of this back to the tokarian people __________________ "In Karate there is no First Strike" In Kenpo it is reversed: In Kenpo there should be no Second Strike

03-09-2005, 09:01 AM	#18 (permalink)
Khun Kao Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 847 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wei_Khru.... Ok, you got me there. I did misquote you. You did not say the Thai's "stole" Muay Khmer. You said the Thai's learned it from the Khmer and exploited it. I took that to mean you were implying that the Thai's stole it, because that is what it seemed to me you were saying. I do apologize for misinterpreting your statement. I can see what you're saying, and unforutnately I don't know THAT MUCH about Thai history to be able to say whether or not it is the truth, though the timeline does support part of what you say. If the Thai tribe which later became the Kingdom of Sukhothai (later to become Siam, then Thailand) was originally part of the Khmer Kingdom, you may have a point. But, if that IS true, that the Thai people separated from the Khmers to form their own kingdom/nation, and the martial arts that the Khmer's practiced evolved to become Muay Thai, then how is it the Khmers (Cambodians) feel that the Thai's "stole" or "exploited" the art? After all, by what you are saying, the Thai's separated from the Khmer's, but were once part of the Khmer Kingdom. To me, that means it was their art as well. Plus, whose to say who learned the art from who? How do we know the art did not originate amongst the ethnic Thai, then spread throughout the Khmer Kingdom while the Thai were still part of that nation? How do we know that the Thai and Khmer even created the art themselves? They may have learned it from the Indians (Hindus). After all, many martial arts history books credit the "origin" of martial arts as we know them today to India, then spreading through China and beyond. If you look at all SE Asian martial arts, they are very very similar. Vietnam, Laos, Burma, Cambodia, Phillipines..... all of these nations martial arts have very obvious similarities. Why are modern people still pressed about who did what with a martial art that they ALL shared 1000 years ago? We don't see the Italians (Romans) up in arms about the changes to the sport of boxing since the day when they pitted gladiators strapped to granite blocks face-to-face pummeling the living shit out of one another with what were essentially brass knuckles. I concede that based upon what you've said, and what I've further read, that its possible that what evolved into modern Muay Thai originated in the Khmer Kingdom. But again, I will point out that this was 1000 years ago!!! The art evolved since then and has now become a modern day sport invented by the Thai's. It seems ridiculous to me that the Cambodians (Khmers) are pressed about it. Seems more a matter of jealousy that they did not think to add boxing rules to it and market it themselves. This is just an opinion based upon the limited facts that I do know, and further arguments I've read from both sides of the story. I'm perfectly willing to 'agree to disagree'. Mai Phen Rai __________________ Kru Brooks C. Miller GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA http://khunkao.com/

03-09-2005, 09:06 AM	#19 (permalink)
Khun Kao Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 847 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, and 'yes', you and I are talking about the same person, Vincent Giordanno (sp?) who posts as "Black Diamond Cobra". __________________ Kru Brooks C. Miller GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA http://khunkao.com/

03-09-2005, 10:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
Khun Kao Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 847 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	It was also referred to as Muay Siam. There is a boxing magazine in Thailand by the same name that has been published for at least the last 30 years, probably longer. __________________ Kru Brooks C. Miller GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA http://khunkao.com/

03-09-2005, 09:29 AM	#20 (permalink)
Kijimuna Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	"So here's the question, what was the name before it was known as Muay Thai? Muay Siam? I dont think so..." It was called Muay Chaiya, Muay Maa Yang, Paak Eesaan, Paak Klang, Muay Lopburi, Muay Ayuthaya, Muay Uttaradit, Paak Nuua... All these and more were combined to create the modern Muay Thai ring sport.

03-11-2005, 12:07 AM	#24 (permalink)
OctaviousBP Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 267 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sanctioning is possible for events through CAMTAO in Ontario. For more information, see previous post. In fact, A class fights have elbows.

03-12-2005, 04:56 PM	#25 (permalink)
SimonM Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 134 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sanctioned events in Ontario Since the moratorium has apparently been lifted. (It's dark in my cave) If any events are coming to the London-St. Thomas area let me know. I'd like to see one.

03-24-2005, 02:05 PM	#26 (permalink)
aphoap Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	How is the progress? Wei_kru, How is the progress in forming the pradal serey tournament? I am really interested in know more about the tournament and Khmer martial arts in general. I sent you a PM but I guess you haven't read it yet. What stage are you in you research/book writing? I have been searching for info about Khmer martial arts for the half a year or so already, but not much on the internet mostly forum posts. I am glad there are fellow Khmers in Canada learning and preserving our ancient tradition and even forming a tournament. The only school in the US that I know for sure teaches Khmer martial arts in Long beach. But up here in Northern California there is none, I am stilling looking for a kru (teacher/master) asking the older folks if they know anyone that is willing to teach. All I can do now is try to emulate the moves from the pradal serey videos from Cambodia. Hope to hear from you soon, here or maybe even on a Khmer forum as many would be interested. On side note, anyone know when the Vanishing flame book and other of that series is due. I only received one e-mail update since joining a long time ago. I suppose he is really busy. Sambo

04-22-2005, 07:57 PM	#27 (permalink)
Phatry Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	The martial art world needs to know the Truth: Muay Thai is_a_Khmer art. Wei Khru, if you have any published articles or research papers about Pradal Serei, I would love to help promote it. I currently work at KhmerConnection, www.khmer.cc, the "world's largest Khmer community website" with over "25,000 members" and is co-founder for Rajana Society, www.rajana.org, a student organization at the University of Washington with the mission to "advance Khmer arts & entertainment." Please e-mail me in private: phatry.pan@GMAIL.COM Thanks for your consideration! Best, Phatry

04-25-2005, 05:14 AM	#28 (permalink)
soldier Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	wei kru, can u please email asap, we need to have a chat about khmer martial arts. marith888@hotmail.com regards

07-13-2005, 04:10 PM	#29 (permalink)
WMTI Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 24 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Id like to thank OctaviousBP for informing you of CAMTAO and my email. I do not patrol the forums regularly, and missed that topic. yeas Muay Thai is legal in Ontario, and has been for a few years. CAMTAO is the official PSO for the sport, and conducts evetns, seminars, lecturs, etc. the rules for Muay Thai are: all weapons are used and all pads worn. As a fighter progresses to the 10th fight the chest shield will be removed, and then at 20 the shin guards are removed. No other gear is removed. this will enable the athletes to prepare better for the advancment to professional with less risk of injury. The elbows are voluntary ( both coaches must agree to include them) for the fiorst 10 fights, afterwards all fights beyond the 10th elbows are included automatically. Pads are head gear, gloves, mouth guard, jock, chest guard elbow guards and shin guards. Thanks again to OctaviousBP and I welcome all to email me or visit the site www.camtao.org it is currently undergoing some chanes so some areas are not up at the moment. Thanks! __________________ Ajarn Gary Dunne cam_taovp@hotmail.com www.camtao.org

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