Garland

Sorry bout the title, just a lot of stuff to fit in.
I came across this, thought it was VERY interesting...

http://kyokushinway.net/kyokushin/bb...shintext&no=15

or...

Yes, this may not be directly related to Chinese Martial Science, but
the lessons we can learn from their history will be very important for
our development. Many people have heard of the legend of how
Kyokushin Karate Founder Mas Oyama challenged and defeated the
invincible Muaythai champion "Black Cobra" in 1954 at Lumpinee
Stadium, Bangkok for the very first time. It was said that he brought
Black Cobra down with an elbow strike, followed by an "aerial triple
kick"; but he admitted it was a very close fight.
Kenji Kurosaki, then and now. The Father of Japanese Kickboxing
has not let age take away his passion for fighting and teaching. Last
year, his student fighting in K1 World Max is Takayuki Kohiruimaki
(right). He lost to Thai opponent Gaolan in the semi-finals.
Ten years later, in 1964, Oyama's senior disciple Kurosaki led another
team of 3 Karateka to Lumpinee to challenge the Thais. Although the
Karate team won 2 out of 3 bouts; Kurosaki, who was the leader, got
KOed by middleweight champion "Reewai" 2 min 35 sec in the 1st
round with an elbow strike. That fight changed his life forever - he
was to give up Karate and train himself in Muaythai, eventually
becoming the Father of Japanese Kickboxing. His castle, the Mejiro
Gym still stands strong today. But in the old Japanese martial art
comics "Karate Baka Ichidai", this important episode in Karate history
was not depicted at all, only vaguely mentioned. It appeared that the
comics only glorifiied, sometimes exagerating the victories of
Kyokushin, but not its defeats.
Yoshiji Soeno, a Kyokushin Karate legend; & "Reiba", the "Dark Lord
of Muaythai", as potrayed in the old Japanese martial art comics
"Karate Baka Ichidai" (The Karate Idiot). After Mas Oyama, Soeno was
the only other Karateka mad enough to launch a solo challenge on the
strongest fighters in Thailand. Not surprisingly, the above real persons
inspired the creation of the famous Street Fighter game characters Ryu
& Sagat two decades later. Notice the striking resemblance of the
comic and game potrayals. There is not a gaming youngster in this
world who does not know these two characters, but hardly anybody
would know the true story behind them.
Finally in 1974, soon after the 5th All Japan Open, Yoshiji Soeno, the
"Tiger of Kyokushin" (paired with the equally famous Terutomo
Yamazaki, known as the "Dragon of Kyokushin") decided to follow in
the footsteps of Mas Oyama. With the blessing of Sosai Oyama, he
embarked on a solo mission to Thailand to re-determine which is the
ultimate striking art on Earth - Karate or Muaythai?
* The real Yoshiji Soeno. He is also the Founder of Shidokan Karate
(an off-shoot of Kyokushin), famous now in the US for its annual
martial arts triathlon that tests fighters in Karate, Kickboxing &
Grappling. Perhaps in Shidokan's system lies the true direction that
Kyokushin should adopt.
Upon arriving in Bangkok, Soeno went immediately to the Rachdamnern
Stadium, and approached its Orgainizer, "Hasat" asking to fight. Hasat
was unconvinced of Soeno's prowess, but Soeno proved it to him by a
simple "test" involving an available Thai fighter who was there at the
time. Hasat then asked Soeno to head to Chiang Mai, to make a name
for himself in Northern Thailand before coming back to Bangkok again
to fight.
And so Soeno flew to Chiang Mai and the Organizer there, "Osman",
who already knew in advance he was coming, put him up to fight on
that very night. Soeno ran into difficulty in the very first round, getting
knocked down by a surprise flying knee kick (rebounding from the
ropes) from his Thai opponent. In the second round he fought back,
and using the very same tactics, managed to KO his opponent with a
spinning kick to the head. After that match the jealous Organizer set
him up, tricking him into reducing his weight to lightweight, then
putting up a middleweight fighter to fight him.
Soeno was much affected physically & as a result almost got killed in
the subsequent match. It was his mastery of Judo (threw his opponent
out of the Ring) and superhuman belief in Kyokushin Karate that saved
his life and the match. In a dramatic reversal, when his opponent
grabbed his neck & was bout to deliver a coupe de grace, he used a
"Sutemi Waza" (sacrifice technique), completely stunning the Thai with
an aerial roundhouse kick to the neck from that position.
That bout finally caught the attention of "Reiba", whom they call the
"Dark Lord of Muaythai". Perhaps he was as strong as "Black Cobra"
was, if not more so. Reiba's prowess struck fear deep into Soeno's
heart. He too knew the aerial triple kick, which he first learned when
he saw Oyama's fight with the Black Cobra 20 years ago. Osman
wasted no time in arranging a fight between Soeno & Reiba's disciple
"Mongkut Kalop", the "Dark Warrior".
Preluded by a pompous press conference, this fight began with the high
anticipation of all Muaythai fans in Chiang Mai. Soeno immedaitely felt
the deadly force of Mongkut's kicks in the first round. But to
amazement & shock of everyone present, he suddenly unleashed the
"triangle leap attack" (again using the ropes) technique, knocking out
the Thai with a powerful strike to the head in that very round. Reiba,
shocked as he was, immediately gathered himself and asked Soeno to
increase his weight to middleweight - he would take him on personally!
However Reiba's brother "Daya", a bandit chief (really!) intervened &
said he would slaughter Soeno in his brother's place. So it was. This
time, with live coverage on national TV, this fight would be seen by
all of Thailand. Halfway through his "Wai Kru" dance, the wild Daya
suddenly attacked Soeno, even before the starting bell was rung! He
had no regard for rules & was like an animal, fighting using the
"Pahuyuth" < www.ancientmuaythai.com > system that hit witth every physical weapon available. It
was bloody & brutal, as both fighters fought with all the techniques &
strength that they had. Finally in the 4th round, when both of them
were almost exhausted, Soeno leapt into the air and struck Daya with
an elbow drop to the top of his skull - sending him flat on to the
canvas unconscious instantly.
Reiba, already fuming by now, knew that only he himself could take
this Karateka. But it was a fight that never was. Four days before the
destined battle, Reiba was shot dead by a Thai gangster who was part
of a mob to ambush him, controlled by the gambling syndicates.
Ironically, not even the whole bunch of gangsters with weapons could
take Reiba; he was shot by one of them whom he spared. In a grand
funeral, the mighty Dark Lord disappeared forever into the darkness.
Soeno returned to Bangkok soon after, fighting and winning the top
fighters in Lumpinee, but in those victories he felt no joy; the death of
Reiba had left an eternal void in his heart of what might have been.
Kancho Shokei Matsui, Champion of the 4th World Open and chosen
heir of Mas Oyama. He leads the IKO1 Kyokushin-kai. However, after
Oyama's death Kyokushin has broken up into a few splinter groups.
This is in addition to the many off-shoots or sub-styles that grew out
of Kyokushin even when Oyama was still alive.
After that episode, in the following year (1975) was the 1st World
Open, perhaps the most glorious moment of Kyokushin where all
challengers from other fighting styles around the world were easily (c'ept the muay thai guy...)
blown away. The eventual Champion was Sato, 1st runner up Royama
(a key pillar figure in IKO1 now) and 2nd runner up Ninomiya, the
founder of Enshin Karate. In that period other first generation disciples
of Oyama also went out to challenge the best of the rest (including
Muaythai, Kickboxing & Kungfu) & achieved awe-inspiring results.
Kyokushin at that time was indeed the strongest karate on Earth, the
ultimate striking art. (along with muay thai)
The say: "The proud dragon nurses regret. When
something reaches fullnesss, it cannot last." In the 80s, Kyokushin
started to close its doors to challengers, and it no longer sent fighters
out there to challenge other styles. The later generation Karateka
seemed content to rest easy on the fruits of the success & dominion
left by their brave predecessors.
Kyokushin turned inward, focusing only on its own tournaments and its
own rules, so much so the whole style started to revolve around the
tournament system of fighting. They were becoming in the words of
Bruce Lee, "fixed to a pattern" of doing things. As a result, certain
obvious flaws started to surface in the Kyokushin style, and when
dissenting views was not accepted, cracks in the organization became
inevitable. Off-shoots or sub-styles (like Ashihara, Shidokan, Daidojuku)
started to form out of Kyokushin. Their differences were not only in
combat efficiency, but many were also politically & financially
motivated.
Even one as good as Matsui is susceptible to the flaws of the
Kyokushin style. In the 3rd World Open, he was hit again & again to
the face by a flurry of punches from an Indian fighter who did not
care much for the rules. Matsui was brought down a few times due to
these "foul punches". The Indian fighter was of course disqualified, but
from here we can see that unlike the first generation students of
Oyama (& he himself), the later generations of Karate fighters knew
not how to defend their head from punches by a good boxer!
One of Kyokushin's weakness stem from its tournment rule that
disallowed punching to the face. While the first generation fighters had
to learn to defend their head because they challenged other styles, the
later generation who focus only on their own tournaments completely
ignored this important aspect of striking. In the tournaments they could
stand close to their opponent and throw continuous low kicks without
having to worry about an opponent punching them on their exposed
face.
This rule created a false sense of security in its fighters, & as it
became a fixed pattern, they don't expect others out there to do
otherwise either. Even Shokei Matsui, the chosen heir of Mas Oyama
displayed such a weakness when he faced an Indian fighter in the 3rd
World Open (1984) who flouted this rule repeatedly - he was punched
in the face & brought down several times. Even though Matsui won
the bout because the Indian was disqualifiied, one cannot help but
wonder - what if it was a real fight? Would the outcome still remain
unchanged?
Another weakness of the Kyokushin style is its banning of all
aspects of grappling in their tournaments. In UFC 1, the first
Kyokushin fighter to experience this was Gerard Gordeau. Notice he
has the characters "Kyokushin-kai" as well as its logo tattooed on his
left arm. Though the UFC organizers at that time tout him as a
"Savate" fighter, that was far from the truth. To his credit his karate
skills were strong enough to defeat opponents bigger than him, bringing
him to the finals. However that winning streak ended immediately when
he faced the then invincible master of Jujutsu, Royce Gracie.
Before Gerard had a chance to throw a single blow, Royce shot in,
took him down, and in a few short moments got behind him to apply a
rear neck choke. Gerard had no choice but to tap for his life. At that
time we were all indeed amazed at the power of Jujutsu.
Another of Kyokushin's significant weakness is its banning of all
aspects of grappling from their tournment fighting, even stand-up
grappling. While most of the first generation fighters had a high degree
of training in Judo before they learned Karate, the same could not be
said for the later generations. Because in the past Judo in Japan was
compulsary in school, that gave all Japanese fighters of old some
experience on grappling more or less. Furthermore in the past, the rules
on grappling was much relaxed, such that throws & take-downs could
be seen quite often in early Kyokushin tournaments. But as time
passed, to protect the later generation Japanese fighters who weren't as
good in grappling from the heavyweight foreigners who were using
grabbing to their advantage, the rules became very strict.
That ensured that the Japanese keep their winning edge, but it also
made the Kyokushin style less & less resistant against grapplers. And
it is worse for those foreigners who learn Kyokushin fresh, without any
prior grappling experience. The first foreign Kyokushin stylist to learn
this the hard way was Gerard Gordeau, a Dutch Karateka, when he
faced the then invincible Royce Gracie in the UFC 1 Final. He was
impressive all the way until he met Royce the master grappler.
Although Gerard had some fighting experience against other lesser
grapplers, but against Royce he was took down and choked from the
rear before he had a chance to throw a single blow! And it was the
UFC that left the whole MA world in awe of Jujutsu.
And we saw that scenario all over again in UFC 2, when Minoki
Ichihara, a Daidojuku Karateka from Japan ran into Royce. Daidojuku is
another hybrid off-shoot of Kyokushin that mixed boxing, throws and
ground techniques into their Karate. Still, for Minoki that was
insufficient.
*Minoki tried a low kick against Royce, which he easily grabbed to
bring Minoki down. After a 5 min struggle against the inevitable, he was forced to tap by an arm lock. Yes, Royce was great, but today,
his aura of invinciblity is gone. People had got used to his grappling
style and he had been defeated quite a number of times since. This is
to tell us that no one style is perfect. If something does not keep
improving & renewing itself, it will surely become obsolete.
With Kyokushin-kai's continuous falling apart & with its world best
fighters gone, it would appear that the mandate of heaven had truly deserted their organization. Perhaps Mas Oyama wanted his dominion to
die with him; but is this the inevitable destiny of the vast international
Karate empire passed down from Oyama to Matsui?

__________________
homo homini lupus

Garland

HENCE;
a rose by any other name is still a rose.
a fighter needn't limit himself by the bindings of one system.
and...the only way to become a better fighter is to simply fight, and not within the confines of one's own system.

mix and match, find what works and fine tune it...to yourself.
JKD philosophies and concepts in action...right here.
Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Royce Gracie, UFC....and they all tie in to Ken and Ryu.

Bet you won't ever look at that game the same way again!

__________________
homo homini lupus

Garland

well...I THOUGHT that people would find this interesting. It has some historiological significance...and it's really fun to read...but, hey, I guess it's the thought that counts...

__________________
homo homini lupus

swisscom

I gave up reading about a 1/4 way down.
Post #2 was interesting though.
props

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xcom

Well...At most I see the story as a myth. In the history, Thai people never hided from the truth and, as said in the article, there should be some clips available.
I will ask some experts over here in Thailand about Mas Oyama and co. (may be coming back next week if I've got some info). OK it is no faults if they wanna use that for their business but some might need to hear from the Thai side. There have been a number of great fighters such as Fujiwara, Gaman and Dekker coming here and write their name to the book. We respect those people but, as far as I know about Muaythai, I have nerver ever heard of that Karate story.

Garland

Hey...I'm a muay thai guy, so if you can invalidate the story...mad props...it makes it even better.
I do think the fight took place, though...but even so, it's still a great story.

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homo homini lupus

twtguy

i cant believe i read all of that. props on a good story...true or not.

i agree mix it up.