The Ultimate in Martial Arts

Slaya · 06-26-2007, 03:42 PM

I didn't know where to put this but muay thai seems to be a very good example of this. Now, I don't want any of the crap like women aren't ment for this or antyhing, this is sheer hypathetical situation. Who would win in a fight, a man or a woman. Same height, weight, and virtually everything other than their body structure. I have been reading up and have heard alot of people say that women are better at muay thai (This post is more of a generalize, not just muay thai) because of how their bone structure is. They generally have less tissue and muscle covering the knees, knuckles, and elbows allowing for more damage. I'm just curious about what other people have to think about this. Remember, this is generalized though, not just muay thai.

Tim Mousel · 06-26-2007, 04:18 PM

Simple answer - The man would win. Men have more muscle mass which means they can hit harder.

Tim

Tim Mousel · 06-26-2007, 05:05 PM

Well said Mike.

There are definitely plenty of guys that Layla Ali would destroy in a boxing match, but, take a guy of equal weight and skill and she'd have no chance.

I also want to point out that I'm not being sexist at all. Also want to point out that this conversation is centered on sport...thaiboxing, boxing, etc. That's not to say that a woman attacked by a larger attacker would have no chance. There are many other variables present in a non-sportive attack.

Tim

the tick · 06-26-2007, 05:51 PM

I saw a man vs woman fight a few years back. Somekind of exhibition thing I think. The guy was knocked flat on his ass. The female fighter was Irma Verhoeff. Of that I'm sure. The male fighter was, and here I'm not 100% sure, Remy Bonjasky.

Slaya · 06-26-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Mousel

Simple answer - The man would win. Men have more muscle mass which means they can hit harder.

Tim

Did you read my post man. The same. The only "difference" would be the bone structure which is basically something you cannot change by working out. A man and a woman can have the same amount of muscle mass and in this hypathetical case, imagine they do.

Please read the post before you vote.

Slaya · 06-26-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I remember sometime in the early nineties, Kathy Long proposed a fight between her and a man, and later bailed on the idea because she was getting banged up in preparation for it. I could be wrong, though. I've taken a lot of head shots since then...

I think it's like Tim says, with a caveat. A woman like, say, Layla Ali who walks around at 160lbs or better would have a pretty easy day against a guy of equal skill, but who only weighed 110 lbs. No one has ever said that women can't become just as tough as guys, or that they can't develop the same skill levels as guys. Still, physiology is a tough thing to overcome. When all else is equal, any advantage is an advantage, right? So a woman weighing 150 has a much different physiology than a guy at the same weight. An average woman carries between 18-25 percent bodyfat, just because of their anatomy. A male fighter at that weight might have a body fat level of 5-8 percent. In practical terms, that means a woman at 150 pounds might have as much as 30 pounds of weight on her frame in bodyfat. The man, likewise, has up to 30 extra pounds of muscle mass to throw around.

It's not a sexist thing - it's just what we are.

On your post, if it is possible for a woman fighter to get their body fat level to 5-8 percent then my question still holds it's ground. I fully understand that "practically" a guy would win because you don't see many female arnold swartzenegars around, but still. I find the question very interesting. I'd love to see this post fill up.

Ardith · 06-26-2007, 07:06 PM

Guys that build muscle to look like Arnold aren't the guys that powerlift 800-900 lbs over their heads.

Mass does matter, but like any geometry teacher tells you, you can't go on looks.

My friend's dad and brother are both powerhouses when it comes to lifting weight. His father can benchpress 350 pounds and his brother set the state record in deadlifting at his age (I think 15 or 16 at the time). They are both guys who are smaller than me. Society just pushes the image that lean toned abs and pectorals and other muscle definition means that the guy is very strong.

Neutron stars are more massive than our sun, but are smaller. It's just food for thought.

Slaya · 06-26-2007, 08:30 PM

A bunch of you are absolutely missing the entire point of this and the rest of you are looking far too into it lol. I'm not asking anything over complicated, and I'm not asking if a girl can do more push ups than a guy. I'm just asking in a standard fight, doesn't matter what it is but two EXACTLY the same individuals, the only variable is gender. Now alot of you have been asking about the fight. For the sake of it lets say it is "sportive" but each individual have the exact same knoweldge of the exact same art(s) and can do it equally well.

Tom Yum · 06-26-2007, 08:42 PM

I'd say man.

All thing being equal men tend to be better at fighting because of the reasons posted above: more muscle mass, the ability to hit harder with more explosive power.

Checkout Lucia Rijker's exhibition match against a male ex-flyweight? champ from Thailand. Rijker is very skilled and could probably knock out alot of dudes, some even larger, but when pit against someone who was as skilled as herself, she got KO'd.

eXcessiveForce · 06-27-2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaya

Did you read my post man. The same. The only "difference" would be the bone structure which is basically something you cannot change by working out. A man and a woman can have the same amount of muscle mass and in this hypathetical case, imagine they do.

Please read the post before you vote.

Well i can say this, you may not have brains, but you have guts. It might be wise to be a bit more respectful to the guy who OWNS the forum you are on at this moment.

just a suggestion.

eXcessiveForce · 06-27-2007, 02:57 AM

No i'm sure Tim really doesn't care about Slaya's opinion or attitude.

I mean this is the person who signed up for a cardio kickboxing class thinking it was MT.

I just haven't gotten to ban anybody for awhile. LOL

Tim Mousel · 06-27-2007, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaya

Did you read my post man. The same. The only "difference" would be the bone structure which is basically something you cannot change by working out. A man and a woman can have the same amount of muscle mass and in this hypathetical case, imagine they do.

Please read the post before you vote.

How old are you?

I did read your post and my reply remains the same. The man would win. Nothing about my answer would indicate that I did not read it.

According to your specifications: "Same height, weight, and virtually everything other than their body structure." If a man and a woman are the same height and weight, the man will still have more muscle mass unless the muay thai fighter you are thinking of is obese. The average woman is 25% body fat. That is considered obese for a man.

If the man and woman are exactly the same, including the amount of muscle mass and fat mass with the only difference being bone structure, the man would still win.

Also, to a degree you can change bone structure by working out (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/n...ry_50628.html). Bone density increases with the correct types of working out. Men generally have stronger bones than women.

Men also have more testosterone than women which offers a variety of advantages for fighting.

There are also mental/psychological factors to consider which also gives the man the advantage.

You state: "if it is possible for a woman fighter to get their body fat level to 5-8 percent then my question still holds it's ground. "

If it is possible? It's possible, but the woman would certainly be in no condition to be fighting as the essential fat for a woman is 10-12%. So based on that, the question doesn't "hold it's ground".

Tim

Ahsen · 06-27-2007, 06:59 AM

you do realise this is a very very complecated debate.

Excessive Force can I ask you a Personal Question please ?

eXcessiveForce · 06-27-2007, 07:51 AM

you can ask it, but depending on how personal it might be I may not answer

Khun Kao · 06-27-2007, 09:25 AM

Considering I've seen numerous male/female matchups in the ring, I have to agree with Tim. Man wins

View Poll Results: Who would win, a man or a woman?
Men	985	99.80%
Women	2	0.20%
Voters: 987. You may not vote on this poll

06-26-2007, 03:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Slaya Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Men Vs Women I didn't know where to put this but muay thai seems to be a very good example of this. Now, I don't want any of the crap like women aren't ment for this or antyhing, this is sheer hypathetical situation. Who would win in a fight, a man or a woman. Same height, weight, and virtually everything other than their body structure. I have been reading up and have heard alot of people say that women are better at muay thai (This post is more of a generalize, not just muay thai) because of how their bone structure is. They generally have less tissue and muscle covering the knees, knuckles, and elbows allowing for more damage. I'm just curious about what other people have to think about this. Remember, this is generalized though, not just muay thai. __________________ You will get no sympathy from me. If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.

06-26-2007, 08:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Slaya Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 64 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	A bunch of you are absolutely missing the entire point of this and the rest of you are looking far too into it lol. I'm not asking anything over complicated, and I'm not asking if a girl can do more push ups than a guy. I'm just asking in a standard fight, doesn't matter what it is but two EXACTLY the same individuals, the only variable is gender. Now alot of you have been asking about the fight. For the sake of it lets say it is "sportive" but each individual have the exact same knoweldge of the exact same art(s) and can do it equally well. __________________ You will get no sympathy from me. If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.

06-26-2007, 08:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,573 Groans: 1 Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts	I'd say man. All thing being equal men tend to be better at fighting because of the reasons posted above: more muscle mass, the ability to hit harder with more explosive power. Checkout Lucia Rijker's exhibition match against a male ex-flyweight? champ from Thailand. Rijker is very skilled and could probably knock out alot of dudes, some even larger, but when pit against someone who was as skilled as herself, she got KO'd. Last edited by Tom Yum; 06-27-2007 at 10:12 AM.

06-27-2007, 02:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	No i'm sure Tim really doesn't care about Slaya's opinion or attitude. I mean this is the person who signed up for a cardio kickboxing class thinking it was MT. I just haven't gotten to ban anybody for awhile. LOL __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

06-26-2007, 04:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tim Mousel Administrator Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,714 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Simple answer - The man would win. Men have more muscle mass which means they can hit harder. Tim

06-26-2007, 05:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tim Mousel Administrator Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,714 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	Well said Mike. There are definitely plenty of guys that Layla Ali would destroy in a boxing match, but, take a guy of equal weight and skill and she'd have no chance. I also want to point out that I'm not being sexist at all. Also want to point out that this conversation is centered on sport...thaiboxing, boxing, etc. That's not to say that a woman attacked by a larger attacker would have no chance. There are many other variables present in a non-sportive attack. Tim

06-26-2007, 05:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
the tick Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 268 Groans: 5 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I saw a man vs woman fight a few years back. Somekind of exhibition thing I think. The guy was knocked flat on his ass. The female fighter was Irma Verhoeff. Of that I'm sure. The male fighter was, and here I'm not 100% sure, Remy Bonjasky.

06-26-2007, 07:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ardith Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 32 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guys that build muscle to look like Arnold aren't the guys that powerlift 800-900 lbs over their heads. Mass does matter, but like any geometry teacher tells you, you can't go on looks. My friend's dad and brother are both powerhouses when it comes to lifting weight. His father can benchpress 350 pounds and his brother set the state record in deadlifting at his age (I think 15 or 16 at the time). They are both guys who are smaller than me. Society just pushes the image that lean toned abs and pectorals and other muscle definition means that the guy is very strong. Neutron stars are more massive than our sun, but are smaller. It's just food for thought.

06-27-2007, 06:59 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ahsen Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 257 Groans: 1 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	you do realise this is a very very complecated debate. Excessive Force can I ask you a Personal Question please ?

06-27-2007, 07:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,991 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post	you can ask it, but depending on how personal it might be I may not answer __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive. www.b-prime.com A success and achievement community

06-27-2007, 09:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
Khun Kao Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 870 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Considering I've seen numerous male/female matchups in the ring, I have to agree with Tim. Man wins __________________ Kru Brooks C. Miller GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA http://khunkao.com/

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