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Thread: Thai's vs the chinese

  1. #1
    Registered User darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice
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    Thai's vs the chinese

    I came across this on the internet the other day I thought I’d post it and let you guys see it.

    I don’t know what to make of it. I guess I’m one of those damn elitists that I always flame on. But I truly thought (STILL DO) That MT was unbeatable as a stand up striking art. Of course this tournament was in china and the Chinese have very biased judges.

    On the night of 23rd of September, at the foot of Bak Wan San (White Cloud Hill) where Master Wong Fei Hong was buried, wave upon wave of thunderous cheering had shaken the entire New Guangzhou Stadium in Canton. In a 7 match Sanda Vs Muaythai Pro Challenge there, the Chinese fighters have convincingly defeated the Thais with a glorious 5 : 2 victory. The action that have taken place on that fateful night way surpassed that of the previous Sep 8th Challenge. This time we saw the Muaythai champions using everything they could - punches, kicks, elbows (padded), knees & clinches, beating up many of the Chinese badly; yet in the end Sanda prevailed. Though there was bias & unfair judging from some of the Chinese judges, it could not take much away from the solid result that the Sanda fighters have achieved. If the victory of the previous challenge is shaky & not to be recognized by the world of MA, then the MA world will have no choice but to acknowledge this current victory after they see this hard fought battle. Muay Thai is no longer the ultimate ring sport.

    The 1st bout is the 52kg category fight between Xu Ding & Rakseelah Chunpadoo, which started out badly for the Chinese. Xu could not get his throws which worked in previous fights to work against the Thai. In the 4th round Rakseelah landed a solid left knee kick in the right chest of Xu, completely knocking the spirit out of him. I think his ribs may have been fractured. The Chinese coach had to immediately throw in the towel, effecting an initial TKO for the Thai team.


    The 2nd bout is the 56kg category fight between Zhao Bo & Sinlabathai Jorjeeying, by far the most unfair fight of the evening. Although the Thai could not knock down Zhao, he was obviously the superior fighter, sucessfully landed 2 elbow strikes on his opponent. By the end of the 5 rounds Sinlabathai had whacked Zhao so hard that his skin was splitted above the left eye-lid.. leaving him dazed & hardly able to stand properly. While Zhao did land many side kicks on his opponent they did not hurt the Thai at all. Yet some of those unethical Chinese judges still gave this match to Zhao, drawing fire from the Thai judges & officials later.

    The 3rd bout is the 60kg category fight between Liu Zedong & Songkong Jeenukoon, who were quite equally matched. All it took for the Chinese to win was a few ineffective side kicks & throws. In a 50-50 fight like this it is inevitable the visitor will surely lose by points to the host. Nothing short of a knock down will suffice for a Thai win. At this point, some of the Thai spectators walked out of the stadium, feeling disgusted no doubt.

    The 4th bout is another 60kg category female fight between Wang Zanli & Yorying Seewoopeun. Wang is a head taller than Yorying.. I wonder how they could be of equal weight. As expected the Thai lass is knocked & thrown about by Wang throughout the fight, letting her winning decisively for the Chinese team.

    The 5th bout is the 65kg category fight between Yu Dawei & Tiapalee Pathawachai, a seasoned champion with a record of 80 wins out of 88 fights. Yu could not throw the Thai at all - he came well prepared. On the other hand he was hit so many times by Tiaplee's firece elbow/knee combos that the Chinese coach, fearing for Yu's safety, had to throw in the towel in the 4th round. Another TKO for the Thais, bring the result to 3 : 2.

    The 6th bout is the 70kg category fight between Hu Tao & Chavalit Jorjeeying, perhaps the toughest fight that evening. In the first 4 rounds both fighters had won 2 each. Hu has strong techniques but he could not gain any upper hand from the Thai. It is until the final round that he went totally defensive, countering Chavalit's attacks with side kicks whenever he could. Of course, they could not hurt the Thai, but Hu had already gained a marginal win by points through his tactic. The Thai judges were also caught being bias in this bout, for they had given ridiculously high points to Chavalit when he was obviously on the defensive during 2 of the 5 rounds. So in the end this 50-50 fight had to be forfeited to the host, which sealed the visiting team's fate.

    The 7th & final bout is the 75kg category fight between Liu Hailong, last year's King of Sanda & Lukpoei Grabangkoei, which was the climax of the whole Challenge. Indeed Liu showed mastery worthy of a King. Right in the beginning of the 1st round he landed a high round kick in Lukpoei's head, & without stopping he grabbed his 75kg opponent, lifted him high up & thrown him out of the ring into the concrete! Screams of pure exhilaration rang through the entire stadium. Following that, Liu landed another solid punch right in his opponent's face after feigning with a low kick, sending Lukpoei reeling. By the end of the 2nd round he was already bleeding all over his face. Yet the Thai insisted on continuing the fight. Muaythai's fighting spirit was truly admirable, & the spectators could not help but respect this fighter. Silence filled the stadium as everyone watched this engrossing battle of skill vs toughness. Liu agained lifted & threw the Thai out of the ring with a back body drop. That's not all; he later splitted open his face with a spining backfist. It is all the Thai can do to prevent himself from being knocked out. At the end of the bout an ambulance had to send Lukpoei immediately to the hospital to treat his incessant bleeding, a result of several solid blows to his face. When Liu made his hero's exit, the Chinese spectators, no longer able to control their jubilation, surrounded & lifted him high above their heads, roaring,"China Team, Victory!!" The Thai spectators (including a former Thai Premier who is there to support), however, are visibly shocked & left speechless in the aftermath of this great battle. The Thai coach was glum & refused to answer any questions when approached by eager reporters on his way back to the locker rooms. Several Bangkok TV stations also broadcasted this Challenge live in Thailand. I cannot begin to imagine the effect of this defeat on the millions of Muaythai fans back home.. afterall, everyone believed Muaythai to be invincible in the ring - until tonight.

    I still luv' ya' MT!!!
    Last edited by darrianation; 04-28-2003 at 08:23 PM.
    The law of tyranny:

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    2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
    3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


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  2. #2
    Novice skilzkid is on a distinguished road skilzkid's Avatar
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    So, of the 7 matches -

    - 2 Muay thai KOs
    - 1 decisive Kung Fu victory (the main event)
    - 1 Kung Fu victory by weight mismatch (the women's fight)
    - 3 half-a$$ed decisions

    No body ever said that Muay Thai was invincible, but this event proves absolutely nothing except that a thai boxer is more likely to KO his opponent. They should really fly in neutral judges for events like this, or just let the fight go to KO so they wouldn't have to worry about bias.

  3. #3
    Registered User swan104 is on a distinguished road swan104's Avatar
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    When did this tournament occur??
    Steven

  4. #4
    Registered User darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice darrianation is just really nice
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    The tourney was last year I believe.

    Yes It would seem the Thai's would have to have knockouts otherwice regardless of what happened during the fight the chinese judges would give the fight to the chinese fighter.
    The law of tyranny:

    1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
    2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
    3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


    Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

  5. #5
    Registered User chris davis 200 is on a distinguished road
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    The vast majority of people in this forum are very very insistant that MT is by far the greatest around.

    although some dubius decissions may have occured i think this says quite convincingly that it is not the greatest and others can compete quite evenly.

    There wasnt 2 KO's. The chinese coach through the towel in!

    The main event seems to say the most.

    It doesnt say that there is a weight mismatch in the womens event - just says that the chinese was taller.

    I think MT is excellent but dont believe it is the be all and end all - as some do, this proves my point.

    Cheers
    Chris

  6. #6
    Registered User chris davis 200 is on a distinguished road
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    It does say the thai judges were bias too!!

  7. #7
    Novice skilzkid is on a distinguished road skilzkid's Avatar
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    Well, throwing in the towel due to cracked ribs and fearing for the fighter's safety constitute a KO in my book.

    And I do agree with you - K1 and other events have shown enough times that thai fighters can lose to other arts. At the same time Thai boxing is not the only game, it should not be discretied due to this event. It's all about the individual fighter and their training...but I digress, as there are enough crap-filled "this art can beat this art" etc. threads around these forums.

  8. #8
    Registered User Khun Kao will become famous soon enough
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    Without having seen all the matches, I can only make some general comments...

    You guys know by now that I *love* Muay Thai. Heck, I practically live & breathe Muay Thai! But it is NOT invincible. The Chinese San Da fighters are giving their Thai counterparts a good run for the money.

    The Chinese are exploiting two major weaknesses in ring-style Muay Thai.

    #1- Side Kicks- The Thai's do not use Side Kicks (generally speaking) in the ring because the body positioning of a Side Kick is hard to recover and effectively continue an attack or defend afterwards. Because the Thai's have all but stopped training to use the Side Kick, they have also all but stopped training to DEFEND against it. Therefore, they are being perceived as suckers for a Side Kick. I believe that these Thailand vs. China matches will cause a rise in the Side Kicks popularity in the Muay Thai ring as the Chinese appear to have figured out how to effectively use it.

    #2- Throws- Face it, this is a glaring weakness of the Thai fighter because the style of throws being used in these cross-style matches is ILLEGAL in Muay Thai. Knee & Elbow attacks, though devestating, are easily nullified by throws. This will continue to be a weakness for most Thai fighters, until certain Thai fighters begin training almost exclusively to fight under San Da rules. Or, an alternative would be for a resurgence of "old school" Muay Thai. Stuff like Muay Boran and Muay Chao Cher. (Thai bare-knuckle and NHB-style Muay Thai)

    Something else to keep in mind about these matches. My understanding is that the Chinese are making a big deal about the fact that their fighters are "amateurs". Well, "DUH!". San Da has not acheived the popularity for it to become a full functional professional sport, so their best fighters are essentially still fighting as 'amateurs'. So the Chinese are making a stink about the fact that their "amateurs" are beating the Thai 'professionals'.

    But look at who the Thai's are putting in the ring... They are rarely "ranked" fighters. Don't get me wrong, they are fielding talented fighters, but not their best. Thailands best fight in Bangkok, and the Thai government makes sure to keep them there. For instance, quite often I have read about the fighters Thailand fields for these events, and a number of times, the fighters aren't even Thai. Occassionally, the fighter is a 'former' champion. But he's no longer good enough to continue to compete in Bangkok.

    I personally think that both Gov'ts are doing these things on purpose as a measure of 'saving face'. The Chinese, when they lose, can always fall back on the excuse that their fighters are amateurs. If the Thai's lose on the other hand, they can always fall back on the excuse that they did not send their very best fighters.

    Khun Kao
    Kru Brooks C. Miller
    GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors
    USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA
    http://khunkao.com/

  9. #9
    Bri Thai
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    The reason Thai Boxers get beat in stand up matches is the same reason that BJJ gets beat in ground grappling. And it is this:

    People steel their techniques but retain the name of their art. So a Kung Fu expert will train Thai........ And a Wrestler wil train BJJ.

  10. #10
    Registered User Khun Kao will become famous soon enough
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    Bri Thai brings up a very good point which I forgot to mention.

    After the first Thailand vs. China matches, when the Chinese got SCHOOLED by the Thai's, the Chinese hired Thai coaches to come train their team.

    Khun Kao
    Kru Brooks C. Miller
    GCA MuayThai Board of Advisors
    USMTA Director of DC, MD, and VA
    http://khunkao.com/

  11. #11
    Registered User Cain is on a distinguished road Cain's Avatar
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    sigh.. this is so stupid.. "if someone is better than thai, that is beacause they have stolen things from thai, thai is the only waaaaaaaaay, if you don't think so, you are endulging in blasphemy.." <-- bri.. seriously, if you think that someone _have_ to steal techs from bbj to be good @ the ground, or from MT to be good standing up, I pity you, you must live in a very narrow world.. don't, again, take me wrong, i love both bjj and MT, but it isn't the only thing.. this borders to a religious thing, and that is dangerous! many arts have very strong things about them, some more than others, MT one of them, BJJ one of them, but the only ones? and if someone else is good, that is beacause they have stolen from those two? that is just ignorant..
    any given fighter can beat any given fighter on any given day..
    so..
    what are you waiting for Rickson, I'm here..

  12. #12
    Registered User swan104 is on a distinguished road swan104's Avatar
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    A lot of the match fixing comes from national pride. A lot of the Chinese still believe that the Chinese martial arts, whether it be kung fu, sanda/sanshou is invincible. I'm sure the Thais feel the same way about their system, the Japanese about Judo etc.

    The thing is its the 21st Century now. Things aren't so closed anymore. People will cross-train if they know one area is inadequate.

    I've just had a look at Cung Le's website. He describes his disicplines as Sanshou and Muay Thai (even though he used to compete in a lot of sanshou matches). I think a lot of the throws he dishes out originate probably comes from his wrestling background and experience.

    I vaguely remember reading an article on tournaments between MT and Wing Chun fighters in the 60s (I think it was about Wong Sheun Leung and Wing Chun). As I recall, he said the Chinese (possibly WC fighters) were beaten by MT kicks. He then goes on to say he went back later on and beat them!!

    Has anyone else read this? I'm not sure if my facts are 100% correct?
    Steven

  13. #13
    Registered User Cain is on a distinguished road Cain's Avatar
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    my boss is MT, he mentioned something about chinese fighters coming to thailand getting their ass kicked when he was very, very young. (he is born in 52 or something), that could be it?
    any given fighter can beat any given fighter on any given day..
    so..
    what are you waiting for Rickson, I'm here..

  14. #14
    Bri Thai
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    Originally posted by Cain
    sigh.. this is so stupid.. "if someone is better than thai, that is beacause they have stolen things from thai, thai is the only waaaaaaaaay, if you don't think so, you are endulging in blasphemy.." <-- bri.. seriously, if you think that someone _have_ to steal techs from bbj to be good @ the ground, or from MT to be good standing up, I pity you, you must live in a very narrow world.. don't, again, take me wrong, i love both bjj and MT, but it isn't the only thing.. this borders to a religious thing, and that is dangerous! many arts have very strong things about them, some more than others, MT one of them, BJJ one of them, but the only ones? and if someone else is good, that is beacause they have stolen from those two? that is just ignorant..
    [Post deleted. Br Thai, there is a right and a wrong way to say just about anything. You are crossing the line here. If you want to have a flame war then take it offline. --Terry]
    Last edited by terry; 04-30-2003 at 04:10 PM.

  15. #15
    Registered User Aaska is on a distinguished road Aaska's Avatar
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    Aww~ Who cares, guys? I have seen Thai fighers beat the total crap out of Sando Fighters (and other stylists) for *MANY* times.

    This one event from last year ain't gonna change my ideas on MT much. Losses happen sometimes. How many more times are we gonna witness MT dominating the standup fighting competitions? A LOT!!!

    So, one event with bad losses doesn't sound that bad... Y'know?

    Cheer up!
    Long Live Muay Thai!

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