Thread: Multiple Opponents

Uke, I'd like to point out when Vitor loses, its generally a lack of heart, or will to fight, I dont think with him its ever been not having enough skills and potential. And some people feel he beat Chuck....

And I hate to do this... but look at what happened to Randy the next two times he fought Chuck, he certainly didnt outbox him then.

Also Randy didnt solely outbox chuck, Chuck had to change the fight to avoid the shot, the clinch, dirty boxing, and he had to do this all after having his face mashed by randy.... those all play factors.

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

Sure boxers are better at boxing, but MMA are better at NHB competition. That's because they're two different sports that require different skills even though some of the skills overlap. This is just like putting down a football player's skills because they can't hang with professional ruggers in a rugby match. Sure both sports involve running and tackling but they are still too different to compare. A MMA may not be able to box with a boxer, but no matter how good a boxer you are you will never get far in MMA if you only have boxing skills.

This wasn't the debate or the point in contention.

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

Now if you want to argue that professional boxers have more natural talent than professional MMA because of the amount of money to be made in boxing and because of the popularity of the sport you MAY have a point, although IMHO that's up for debate too. I'd tend to agree with that though, because MMA is still in it's infancy as a sport.

This isn't about talent. Talent refers to a person's natural ability to perform or to the speed in which they can learn something.

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

That said I tend to agree with you that MMA abilities are sometimes hampered because they try to learn too many things at once instead of being patient and mastering one idea before moving on. Many of the best MMA don't fall into this category- many were exceptional wrestlers first ( ie. Mark Coleman) or are like Crocop and Nog.

Many don't but most do. I'd go as far to say that 95% do fall into that category. Most MMA fighters are jacks of all trades and masters of none. The ones that don't fit that description are the exception. BJJ players, wrestlers and kickboxers. The rest are just guys who learn toughman level boxing, low muay thai kicks and rudimentary bjj skills. Only the guys who came in with skills that they've practiced for years are power players in MMA. Crocop. Fedor. Nogueira. But keep in mind that these guys are all TMA's. Years in the development of there skills. No crash courses in what they've mastered.

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

Great discussion, even if it doesn't really belong in this forum

I agree.

Originally Posted by Uke

This wasn't the debate or the point in contention.

To imply that someone has great skills would be to imply that he is great at what he does. Therefore, to say that Belfort and Frye have great skills is to say that they are great boxers.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. Belfort and Frye may not have great skill at boxing but my point is that they do have great skill at MMA. They are great at what they do, but boxing isn't what they do.

This isn't about talent. Talent refers to a person's natural ability to perform or to the speed in which they can learn something.

I think the best MMA have been training just as long and just as hard as the best boxers. I think that many of them could have been top-flight boxers if they had devoted themselves to boxing instead of MMA (or their core style from which they built their MMA style). If they couldn't have succeeded in boxing than it is because they lack the natural tools, not because they are less disciplined. If you can dispute that factually I'd love to hear your reasons. However, although your economical argument has a valid point (more money attracts more competitors, more competition results in higher standards) it doesn't hold water all by itself because not everyone is motivated primarily by money- although those that are motivated primarily by money will never accept that not everyone is like them.

Many don't but most do. I'd go as far to say that 95% do fall into that category. Most MMA fighters are jacks of all trades and masters of none. The ones that don't fit that description are the exception. BJJ players, wrestlers and kickboxers. The rest are just guys who learn toughman level boxing, low muay thai kicks and rudimentary bjj skills. Only the guys who came in with skills that they've practiced for years are power players in MMA. Crocop. Fedor. Nogueira. But keep in mind that these guys are all TMA's. Years in the development of there skills. No crash courses in what they've mastered.

I'm still not sure exactly why it is relevant that MMA aren't as good as boxers at boxing, but I do agree with you here. I think it's better to become truly good at one thing than it is to dabble in many.

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

Help, Samurai guy!!! DUDE we need a song here....the urban forum is filled with sport names suddenly...hmmmm


I bet on the crackhead with the knife over any of your ring heroes take this shit to the sport section where it belongs.... MMA people havent done so well in the street for a reason...wrong mind set...it has no place on the URBAN COMBATIVES forum

LMFAO! Yeah, this thread has been pretty well hijacked To the point of the thread I do have a serious question. The idea of using a human shield or hostage makes sense to me. What techniques would you recommend for that if you DIDN'T have a weapon for some reason?

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

Help, Samurai guy!!! DUDE we need a song here....the urban forum is filled with sport names suddenly...hmmmm


I bet on the crackhead with the knife over any of your ring heroes... take this shit to the sport section where it belongs.... MMA people havent done so well in the street for a reason...wrong mind set...it has no place on the URBAN COMBATIVES forum

hahaha...

Cant just bust out a song for one thread, what are you crazy!?!?!? You think you can just abuse power like that... It's gotta be many threads which drive you to the point of insanity!!!

Although im not afriad to use it , oh no, its like the Dim Mak of the forum, but .....it works!

Originally Posted by Sagacious Lu

LMFAO! Yeah, this thread has been pretty well hijacked To the point of the thread I do have a serious question. The idea of using a human shield or hostage makes sense to me. What techniques would you recommend for that if you DIDN'T have a weapon for some reason?

Probably directed at Uke, or Boarspear, but I say RNC type grip... as before with the weapon, and the other hand just threating to go into his eyes....

Or on the larynx.... ... ... what?

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

Help, Samurai guy!!! DUDE we need a song here....the urban forum is filled with sport names suddenly...hmmmm


I bet on the crackhead with the knife over any of your ring heroes... take this shit to the sport section where it belongs.... MMA people havent done so well in the street for a reason...wrong mind set...it has no place on the URBAN COMBATIVES forum

but can't those damn thugs wait until I at least can grab my mat out of the trunk and change into my gi... because then I'll really tear some shit up, knife or no knife

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

The Naked strangle hold....but whats this unarmed shit??? Hell i even keep a blade in the shower, so good luck with that

'As opposed to the EDS (Every day shower) toothbrush that most people use...

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

And as you mentioned if Vitor did have good boxing skills, he'd be boxing for more money, well Vitor just won his first boxing match, in less than a minute, and has claimed he wants to go back to MMA.

He wanted to go back to MMA because he realized that he isn't as good as he thought.

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

Personally I'd rather make 200K fighting in the UFC, than 500K fighting in a boxing match, but thats just me, and apparently Vitor.

Say what? What sense does that make? And to be honest, if he were as good as some suggested he'd be making millions, not 500k. Maybe YOU would rather do something like that, but realistically anyone else wouldn't, unless they were filthy rich and just enjoyed MMA. Cash still rules everything around us.

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

With that said, you said "proficient boxers", golden gloves champs, brazilian champs, and Vitor are all proficient boxers... I never said they were the second coming of Muhammad Ali, and I do understand the HUGE difference between Elite boxers and mma boxers/lesser boxers.

pro·fi·cient:


adjective

Definition:

very skilled: having a high degree of skill in something

Rather than discuss what Vitor Belfort is and isn't, let me say that thus far Vitor Belfort has not yet demonstrated proficient boxing skills that would be formidable enough to defeat boxers who are viewed as mediocre. It wouldn't be intelligent for me to state what he cannot do, as he may be talented enough to someday accomplish a proficient level. But as of now, he has demonstrated that he is even close to that level. Which is why I'd put my money on ButterBean and probably make a few bucks.

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

I'm not claiming Floyd Mayweather would be upset by vitor or anyone in MMA, who could make his weight, in a boxing match. I'm just saying there are proficient boxers in MMA.

And I guess we'll agree to disagree. I feel as though people here are fans more of MMA than boxing and don't quite know what true boxing proficiency is. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, this is the same reason that led some people to believe that Arturo Gatti even stood a chance against Mayweather. They thought that because Gatti was bigger, stronger and too tough. But what they obviously didn't know is that Gatti only looks good against boxers like Mickey Ward who is a C- fighter. Mayweather is a A+ fighter. And the story played out once that bell rang. Same thing here. Belfort and Frye look good against toughman level boxers.

I'd go as far as to say that they'd both get embarrassed in K-1.

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

The Naked strangle hold....but whats this unarmed shit??? Hell i even keep a blade in the shower, so good luck with that

Granted you always carry a weapon but for the sake of the discussion if you weren't armed (and had nothing to improvise) you'd use a strangle hold? What kind of attackers would stop for something like that? If they were at all concerned for their comrade they'd just attack that much harder- and you would be easy prey since you would need both hands to control the choke. Am I missing something? This is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to address in my thread on chokes for self-defense before it got side-tracked by the troll.