For all the talk of prevention of violence in today's world, I wonder how many of these prevention measures have been real world tested.

We live in a world of have and have-nots, and one thing that rings true is that misery loves company. If someone is twisted and hateful and they decide to target you, all the prevention in the world isn't going to disuade them. Prevention concepts and verbal diffuses work on individuals who are somewhat rational. I personally never liked verbal diffuses too much because they interfere with the thought process of physical reaction. You can get caught up playing diplomat when you should be focused on your surroundings. Awareness should play a part in your everday life, not just in self defense situations. Be aware but don't focus, or you may miss something and become aware that you're getting your butt kicked.

The reality is that once someone has engaged you, there's little choice. There's a 3 foot rule that applies: If a man has crowded your 3 foot diameter, he has invaded your personal space. Once you sense something may be amiss, inform him of this FIRST, THEN take a step backwards. If he steps towards you after you step backwards, you now have your answer as to what situation you're in. At that point, its up to your discretion whether to go offensive or defensive. If the guy is clearly showing signs of aggression and intimidation, I say take it to him. If he's just arguing and being annoying, I say go defensive, but non-threatening. But whatever you do, don't mix thoughts. Be clear about what you're going to do before it even escalates. If you second guess yourself, that second may cause you alot of pain or worse: no pain ever again.

In a world filled with gangs, too many of you pretend that violence is only something you see on the news. And gangs are growing fast. Here in NY, we didn't have too many gangs since the 60's. Now, we have Bloods and Crips. Our hispanic population is growing rapidly, and so are the numbers of their gangs like Latin Kings and MS13. I'm talking an age group that ranges from 10 to 40 years old. Box cutter incidents. People getting jumped by multiple gang members. Rapes. Muggings in broad daylight. Its not just a night thing anymore. People are carrying weapons. People are still committing hate crimes. People are victims of road rage nearly everyday, and some of those incidents end up in fist fights, whether only one party or both wanted it that way. This is not limited to NY, but in every city. Its in the suburbs too. Violence will always be where there are people.

Bouncer usually consider themselves experts on violence. They feel that because they've won a few bar fights that they have intimate knowledge of street violence. That couldn't be further from the truth. I've been a bouncer. For some years at night clubs actually. Normally, there are so many other bouncers working with you that you never experience the "blood freeze" that you'd feel when facing danger alone. Also, its easy to be brave in a club if you've patted the patrons down. I've seen some guys go overboard and unnecessarily beat some club goers bloody. I've seen those same guys pussy up outside the club when someone who wasn't afraid was ready to hand their asses to them. They(the bouncer) didn't back down because they were using "prevention" techniques. They weren't being noble. Inside the club with 20 other bouncers he would have tried to beat the guy into a coma knowing he had backup. But outside in the street on his own, he was just another big guy who was scared because he didn't have an equalizer. Bouncers don't know that much about street violence if most of their experience comes from the bar/club because they're two different things. Two very different things. Its not only that most of the attacker's a bouncer will face are drunk, but they also usually aren't fighters. Just drunk aggressors.

I've seen throughout the years that not even policemen know as much about violence as correction officers do. Being locked in Riker's Island with the worst of the worst everday for 12 hour shifts is where its at. You don't know who's armed. You don't know who's plotting. All you know is that in that uniform you're a potential target everday for NY city's worst and most violent criminals. They sharpen tooth brushes. They fashion weapons out of glass and plastic. And they can strike any day, any time that they're not in cages. You never know. I've come to respect the many masters who do that job most because they have seen violence on a scale that most will never see it. Riots break out. They've been there. Stabbings and rapes. They've been there. They deal with men who are animalistic with rage everyday, so they know the reality. Many have been stabbed or cut on the arms, abdomen, face and neck. So when I've trained with them and they've explained why they use certain techniques, I listened closely.

A huge question asked in the martial art world is "How do you know if your life or death techniques work? Have someone tried to kill you?" I have been fortunate to learn from many men who have faced those odds way before I ever had to. I was lucky enough to have teachers who taught from trial and error that came from reality. So my schooling came from a different direction than the usual. Most people haven't been blessed to have this experience, so most don't know just how far violence can go. I'm not saying that you have to be stabbed or shot to have been through stuff, but you learn and grow from pain and necessity, not from theory and bravado.

Another misconception is that attackers on the street aren't trained. I personally know that that isn't true. The most common style you'll see in the street is boxing, but its isn't the only one. I can't understand why some of you think that a criminal can't have trained. Why is that so unbelievable? Learning to fight doesn't make you a better man or citizen. It makes you a better fighter. And assuming that the other guy isn't trained is a fool's mistake. You should always train and fight like the man in front of you knows just as much. That way if he is just as good he won't get the initial jump on you because you never underestimated him. So that's a question that many of you should ask yourself: Are you training to beat up guys who can't fight? Or are you trying to be ready for anybody and anything? If you are going to assume, you'd better assume the worst case scenario, because that kind of mindset will force you to prepare for whatever you may fear.

So in closing, the probability that you may be chosen as a victim is very possible. Very high indeed. But only you can prepare yourself to show the attacker that he was dead wrong. Find yourself a teacher who has experience with more than just drunks and homeless people. Someone who has experience with more than just other schoolmates and affiliates. When you want to kick a habit like drinking or drugs, your sponsor is a former addict or drunk. They wouldn't send you to someone who never got high or drunk and couldn't relate to what you're going through for good reason: They couldn't teach or help you to overcome because they lack the REAL EXPERIENCE. Same with an instructor.

Originally Posted by Uke

The reality is that once someone has engaged you, there's little choice. There's a 3 foot rule that applies: If a man has crowded your 3 foot diameter, he has invaded your personal space. Once you sense something may be amiss, inform him of this FIRST, THEN take a step backwards. If he steps towards you after you step backwards, you now have your answer as to what situation you're in. At that point, its up to your discretion whether to go offensive or defensive. If the guy is clearly showing signs of aggression and intimidation, I say take it to him. If he's just arguing and being annoying, I say go defensive, but non-threatening. But whatever you do, don't mix thoughts. Be clear about what you're going to do before it even escalates. If you second guess yourself, that second may cause you alot of pain or worse: no pain ever again.

This sounds like good common sense and even instinctive. How does the law view this?

Originally Posted by Uke

Another misconception is that attackers on the street aren't trained. I personally know that that isn't true. The most common style you'll see in the street is boxing, but its isn't the only one. I can't understand why some of you think that a criminal can't have trained. Why is that so unbelievable? Learning to fight doesn't make you a better man or citizen. It makes you a better fighter. And assuming that the other guy isn't trained is a fool's mistake. You should always train and fight like the man in front of you knows just as much. That way if he is just as good he won't get the initial jump on you because you never underestimated him. So that's a question that many of you should ask yourself: Are you training to beat up guys who can't fight? Or are you trying to be ready for anybody and anything?

It seems like most street attackers don't train, but if they have they might know some boxing or remember how to throw a side kick or a karate style roundhouse.

If your training is live, against someone spontaneous and also training isn't that the best kind of training? When the action starts speeding up, it sure feels like you're fighting.

I assume you're talking about training that's static - guy throws a reverse punch and holds his fist out while the other guy does his self-defense technique.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

This sounds like good common sense and even instinctive. How does the law view this?

Well Tom, the beauty of this method is that once you announce out loud to the man that he is crowding you and you step back, any witnesses will then see him step towards you. Now that forward step that the other man takes can be construed as a lunge or an aggressive approach, ESPECIALLY after you've already announced that you didn't want trouble but he was crowding you. All onlookers will see is you(the protagonist) trying to leave by stepping back, and the man(the antagonist) giving chase aggresively. Its all about perspective. This is just one way to suck someone into an asswhuppin' that they're asking for.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

It seems like most street attackers don't train, but if they have they might know some boxing or remember how to throw a side kick or a karate style roundhouse.

If your training is live, against someone spontaneous and also training isn't that the best kind of training? When the action starts speeding up, it sure feels like you're fighting.

I assume you're talking about training that's static - guy throws a reverse punch and holds his fist out while the other guy does his self-defense technique.

Listen Tom, Mike Tyson was mugging people before he was champion, but while he was training. Don't be fooled. You wouldn't want to face Mike Tyson armed or not. There was a guy in NY that was legendary in certain circles named Mother Dear, who was in jail more than out. Mother Dear has beaten other trained fighters 3 and 4 at a time, but guess what? Mother Dear was a flaming homosexual. You'd never know that someone who acted like that could be as vicious and as skilled as he was. I've heard current boxing champions from NY mention Mother Dear's name in interviews as one of the toughest people they've ever seen.

Criminals were the ones who began pioneering gutterfighting. It wasn't scholars and yuppies. They were the one's who were scrapping on the streets in gang fights and muggings, getting wounded to find out what worked and what didn't. Proof of that is FMA. FMA was practiced by criminals all over the Phillipines. As was Capoeira in Brazil, which is why it was outlawed for so long. Savate was used by french pirates and seaman, who were criminals. Wing Chun was used by Hong Kong's gangs, and thus dubbed the "Gangster fist".

Don't forget, poor people exist all over the world, and each poor place or ghetto produced its own brand of combat and warfare. Convincing yourself that only altruistic individuals are dedicated to training is ridiculous. Do you know how many skinheads and white supremacists are high ranking black belts? Do you know how many Hell's Angels and other bikers train in self defense systems? Don't believe that only crackheads, drunks and homeless people will attack you. Being desperate is only one of MANY reasons someone will choose to confront you.

And yes, I was speaking of the old "static" training where you basically receive no resistance and pitty pat sparring. I was also speaking about the guys who's attitude is "I seriously doubt that a guy trying to mug me will know how to do this and that". That attitude reflects that you think that what you may know is sufficient enough to defeat any mugger or street tough. Assuming how much a man doesn't know will get you killed. I promise you that. Not every altercation will be life threatening, but you'd better be prepared for the ones that are. The messed up part is that you won't know which ones are lethal and which ones are just harassment until they've played themselves out. Intelligent people won't wait that long with their lives on the line. I got that argument from the BJJ guys here all of the time. They would say "I seriously doubt that a knife expert would be mugging me". That's really ignorant. Someone with rudimentary arnis/escrima skills would dice up someone with no training in edged weapons. I guess they haven't pieced that together yet.

I was always taught that if you must assume something, assume the worst so that you are forced to prepare for the worst. Don't assume that a little will be enough because when it isn't you'll have no recourse. Overtrain for overkill.

Originally Posted by Uke

Listen Tom, Mike Tyson was mugging people before he was champion, but while he was training. Don't be fooled. You wouldn't want to face Mike Tyson armed or not. There was a guy in NY that was legendary in certain circles named Mother Dear, who was in jail more than out. Mother Dear has beaten other trained fighters 3 and 4 at a time, but guess what? Mother Dear was a flaming homosexual. You'd never know that someone who acted like that could be as vicious and as skilled as he was. I've heard current boxing champions from NY mention Mother Dear's name in interviews as one of the toughest people they've ever seen.

Mother Dear was listed as an urban legend on the stick grappler site, but who knows....

Tyson as an amateur boxer, while still living on the streets would be one hard ass fighter and would reign terror on his victims. Honestly, what are the chances of one facing someone of that caliber or higher? Good point though.

Blades are good, tacticals are good and anything that is atleast .40 is good. Ok, the .40 round can be stopped by 2 copies of the yellow pages.....

Originally Posted by Uke

Do you know how many skinheads and white supremacists are high ranking black belts? Do you know how many Hell's Angels and other bikers train in self defense systems?

They have their beliefs which I disagree with but as instructors they are usually focused and professional in their art. You get the benefit of someone with street experience and a high rank. Despite the label, alot of these dudes are more normal and down to earth than some 'regular' people.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

They have their beliefs which I might disagree with but as instructors they are usually focused and professional in their art. You get the benefit of someone with street experience and a high rank.

Most of those guys dont teach people outside their organization or club because EVERYONE who is not a member of said organization is a potential threat as an outsider...you cant teach everyone else, or one day youre gonna wind up in a "fair" fight ....the Vietnam Vets and The outlaws have a Master At Arms in every chapter for instance (they also bring in people to teach them skills they feel need work)

The US Military has a SEVERE problem with gangs SENDING people into the Armed forces for training they can use and pass on to the gang for the Streets..."Bad" or Violent people often ENJOY training in the arts to hone their natural born abilities and mean streak...being good at what you do is common, even for the "bad guys". However usually these people arent muggers or rapist, they reserve their "skills" for those who they "interact" with on a daily basis.

It amazes me the mental picture of fights people seem to have, the idea that people cant fight multiple opponents for instance, Talk to ANY federal prison guard, note how many club bearing armored, shield carrying guards it takes them to take down ONE UNARMED half naked pissed off prisoner...it isnt uncommon for guards to require medical assistance afterwards inspite of their numbers and weapons...its the fight in the man, not the style he trains that decides how dangerous he is. MOST normal people pull attacks in real fights because they really dont want to do any permanent damage, this isnt the case in a SD scenario and that seems to elude people....

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

It amazes me the mental picture of fights people seem to have, the idea that people cant fight multiple opponents for instance, Talk to ANY federal prison guard, note how many club bearing armored, shield carrying guards it takes them to take down ONE UNARMED half naked pissed off prisoner...it isnt uncommon for guards to require medical assistance afterwards inspite of their numbers and weapons...its the fight in the man, not the style he trains that decides how dangerous he is. MOST normal people pull attacks in real fights because they really dont want to do any permanent damage, this isnt the case in a SD scenario and that seems to elude people....

I believe its possible Boar, just that I'd had bad experiences with it at a time I was a relative newby. Keep the good stuff coming!

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Mother Dear was listed as an urban legend on the stick grappler site, but who knows....

I know. I wasn't speaking in terms of myth. My family has lived in Brownsville Brooklyn since the 60's. Anyone who's been around knows who Mother Dear is. Things only become urban legends to when you weren't there to experience it.

These last few posts and topics in this category are some of the best I've read here since becoming a member. There's nothing quite like slicing through the fat(bullsh!t) to get to the meat(where you need to be). I haven't been at this site as long as some, but during my time here I've watched BoarSpear and myself continuously debate, argue and fuss with people who clearly aren't open to learning or opening their minds.

This new category is almost like vindication.

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

New category? You wouldn't mean the street/self defense forum, would you?

I cant for the life of me remeber WHO wrote a little song, describing his frustration with the old format....

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

I remember hearing something about that guy being extremely good looking though.

Don't ask, Don't tell, bro.

Keep it to yourself....jj.

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Don't ask, Don't tell, bro.

Keep it to yourself....jj.

.... Hehehehehe

Vindication in the sense that my entire debate last time was about distinguishing between BJJ and what real self defense is. Many decided to be ignorant about it and litter the debate with insults rather than logic. But the man who runs this show, however he may have done it, came to same conclusion that a distinction had to be made because what many were calling street effective self defense ... wasn't. And here we are.

I'm just glad to be able to read some of the great posts in this category and contribute a few myself.

Beyond that, I don't really know what you guys are talking about in the last couple of posts. But its all good, baby.

Originally Posted by Uke

Beyond that, I don't really know what you guys are talking about in the last couple of posts. But its all good, baby.

Awhile back Sum errr ah guy suggested a new forum...after writing a little song to bring light to the issue.