Well, since Mike answered some of the points, all I'll say is I listed the value of ground fighting in SD, you have yet to answer, so I am waiting for you rather.Originally Posted by UkeThe value of ground grappling in SD is to learn to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse submissions and chokes and learn the fastest way to get to your feet. Nothing passed that. If someone here feels that ground grappling has any additional worth passed those points, please post the value!
Now, all of a sudden while we are discussing physical techniques, avoidance has become the cliché of the day?!?!? But what happens when your job mandates that you are in a position that you must be in harms way? Security agents, bouncers, correction officers, police officers, etc. All these professionals face violence, and the majority of the time they do not initiate it. What about mugging and rape victims? Have we begun pretending that they don't exist too?? If you think you're going to avoid being a victim once you've been accosted by someone armed and intent on taking what you have by simply saying "I don't want any trouble", then you're stupid. I'm not going to even sugar coat it.
And anyone who advocates going to the ground(99% of the TOP GROUND GRAPPLERS WIND UP THERE BY CHOICE) in a SD/UC situation where weapons are almost always present either overvalues their ground grappling training, or their instructor trained them as a part of some elaborate practical joke. Don't try to lump judo throws and sweeps into newaza. They're not the same range, but they're found in the same art. What Mike Swain does is totally different than what Royce Gracie does.
And while ground grappling may be a range, its applications in SD are only used to escape that particular range. The examples Mike gave of throwing and arm-barring people were just as controlled as NHB events, because if you are a bouncer(and I was for years) you have the support from the other bouncers. You weren't worried or concerned about multiple attackers because you were fighting Gracie style, with an entourage of bouncers watching your back. And 9 times out of 10 if you working in a club or a bar, the guy you're fighting has been drinking and is inebriated. Few sober men will attack a bouncer when he knows the other bouncers will beat him unmercifully for it.
And what's an "athletic fighter"? Is that some new buzzword for an MMA fighter who is supposedly trained for reality? Either you train for street tactics or you don't. Like it was stated, if you train for sports, you'll fight like it while adhering to the rules you've been conditioned by so that you don't get disqualified. I've seen fighters second guess themselves because they weren't certain about the rules of the tournament that they were competing in. They weren't sure if this one allowed knee strikes to the head. None allow groin strikes. Some don't allow striking while an opponent is down. These athletes embed these rules into their psyche to participate. But all of a sudden when real danger is near, all that conditioning is supposed to disappear because they've developed an athletic "off switch"? That's nonsense. We've already agreed that you'll fight like you've trained. So to now try to amend that point is an exercise in futility.
And yes, grappling is a range and I am not just discussing the sport aspect. But what I am discussing is the fact that this debate is and always was about GROUND GRAPPLING AND ITS APPLICATION IN SELF DEFENSE. Not "grappling" ... GROUND GRAPPLING. And the question that was posed by KOTF was what is grappling defense in the context that we are discussing it? Which is GROUND GRAPPLING! So you mean to tell me that EVERYONE here didn't know we were speaking about GROUND GRAPPLING DEFENSE? And if they did, can someone finally explain to me the aspects of ground grappling that apply to SD outside of learning how to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse chokes and submissions and getting to your feet fast? Because as of yet I have not seen anyone, and I mean anyone produce one SD application of ground grappling other than those already established points.
Somewhere along the way in this debate, someone(I'm not mentioning any names) decided to blur the discussion at hand by generalizing the term "ground grappling" by referring to it as "grappling". That opened the flood gates for all types of bullsh!t that no one else here caught until now. Grappling has ALWAYS been apart of SD/UC, but it has always been executed on your feet where it is a part of CQC.
But the following quote illustrates my point best:
"The dissolution of the samurai class came about at the same time of the Fusen-ryu founding, and the banning of armed combat probably contributed heavily for its development and emphasis in unarmed combat techniques."
So you mean to tell me that one of the most renown group of warriors of all time didn't use newaza on the battlefield? And newaza ONLY became popular after people were forbidden to carry weapons? I WONDER WHY??? Could it be because people back then weren't ignorant enough to roll around on the ground when weapons were present? And since weapons are concealable nowadays, isn't it intelligent to assume that anyone you face is armed?
Or is MMA/ground grappling like a bulletproof shield too?
I think you underestimate SD... who's to say you ALWAYS get jumped, and that you NEVER have people with you. It's much closer to the middle of the line in that situation.