advantage over grapplers

**jubaji** · 07-16-2006, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by pUke

Could it be because people back then weren't ignorant enough to roll around on the ground when weapons were present?

???????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying you don't think there was ever any fighting that took place on the ground among the Samurai?

**J-Luck** · 07-16-2006, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Uke

The value of ground grappling in SD is to learn to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse submissions and chokes and learn the fastest way to get to your feet. Nothing passed that. If someone here feels that ground grappling has any additional worth passed those points, please post the value!

Now, all of a sudden while we are discussing physical techniques, avoidance has become the cliché of the day?!?!? But what happens when your job mandates that you are in a position that you must be in harms way? Security agents, bouncers, correction officers, police officers, etc. All these professionals face violence, and the majority of the time they do not initiate it. What about mugging and rape victims? Have we begun pretending that they don't exist too?? If you think you're going to avoid being a victim once you've been accosted by someone armed and intent on taking what you have by simply saying "I don't want any trouble", then you're stupid. I'm not going to even sugar coat it.

And anyone who advocates going to the ground(99% of the TOP GROUND GRAPPLERS WIND UP THERE BY CHOICE) in a SD/UC situation where weapons are almost always present either overvalues their ground grappling training, or their instructor trained them as a part of some elaborate practical joke. Don't try to lump judo throws and sweeps into newaza. They're not the same range, but they're found in the same art. What Mike Swain does is totally different than what Royce Gracie does.

And while ground grappling may be a range, its applications in SD are only used to escape that particular range. The examples Mike gave of throwing and arm-barring people were just as controlled as NHB events, because if you are a bouncer(and I was for years) you have the support from the other bouncers. You weren't worried or concerned about multiple attackers because you were fighting Gracie style, with an entourage of bouncers watching your back. And 9 times out of 10 if you working in a club or a bar, the guy you're fighting has been drinking and is inebriated. Few sober men will attack a bouncer when he knows the other bouncers will beat him unmercifully for it.

And what's an "athletic fighter"? Is that some new buzzword for an MMA fighter who is supposedly trained for reality? Either you train for street tactics or you don't. Like it was stated, if you train for sports, you'll fight like it while adhering to the rules you've been conditioned by so that you don't get disqualified. I've seen fighters second guess themselves because they weren't certain about the rules of the tournament that they were competing in. They weren't sure if this one allowed knee strikes to the head. None allow groin strikes. Some don't allow striking while an opponent is down. These athletes embed these rules into their psyche to participate. But all of a sudden when real danger is near, all that conditioning is supposed to disappear because they've developed an athletic "off switch"? That's nonsense. We've already agreed that you'll fight like you've trained. So to now try to amend that point is an exercise in futility.

And yes, grappling is a range and I am not just discussing the sport aspect. But what I am discussing is the fact that this debate is and always was about GROUND GRAPPLING AND ITS APPLICATION IN SELF DEFENSE. Not "grappling" ... GROUND GRAPPLING. And the question that was posed by KOTF was what is grappling defense in the context that we are discussing it? Which is GROUND GRAPPLING! So you mean to tell me that EVERYONE here didn't know we were speaking about GROUND GRAPPLING DEFENSE? And if they did, can someone finally explain to me the aspects of ground grappling that apply to SD outside of learning how to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse chokes and submissions and getting to your feet fast? Because as of yet I have not seen anyone, and I mean anyone produce one SD application of ground grappling other than those already established points.

Somewhere along the way in this debate, someone(I'm not mentioning any names) decided to blur the discussion at hand by generalizing the term "ground grappling" by referring to it as "grappling". That opened the flood gates for all types of bullsh!t that no one else here caught until now. Grappling has ALWAYS been apart of SD/UC, but it has always been executed on your feet where it is a part of CQC.

But the following quote illustrates my point best:

"The dissolution of the samurai class came about at the same time of the Fusen-ryu founding, and the banning of armed combat probably contributed heavily for its development and emphasis in unarmed combat techniques."

So you mean to tell me that one of the most renown group of warriors of all time didn't use newaza on the battlefield? And newaza ONLY became popular after people were forbidden to carry weapons? I WONDER WHY??? Could it be because people back then weren't ignorant enough to roll around on the ground when weapons were present? And since weapons are concealable nowadays, isn't it intelligent to assume that anyone you face is armed?

Or is MMA/ground grappling like a bulletproof shield too?

Well, since Mike answered some of the points, all I'll say is I listed the value of ground fighting in SD, you have yet to answer, so I am waiting for you rather.

I think you underestimate SD... who's to say you ALWAYS get jumped, and that you NEVER have people with you. It's much closer to the middle of the line in that situation.

**Tant01** · 07-17-2006, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by J-Luck

The problem is everyone should be well rounded... so striking vs grappling is fairly narrow minded.

But to correct your previous statements... The greatest defense is usually a good offense. I would not hold someone on the ground and wait for them to tire, I would smash them to the ground(which 9 times out of ten is enough to stop the situation completly) and while they are obviously hurt and damaged, apply a quick and sudden hold and break their bone,rip their ligament, or otherwise create a limp limb.

Also, a good choke will take you out in seconds, good luck stabbing someone when the blood is rushing to your head and you biggest worry is not passing out... I'll take the chance that he might be able to stab me in order to make him pass out in seconds... that is, if I've already been stupid enough to allow him the option of keeping the weapon by the time we got that far.

Still a moron I see...

What makes you think grappling Vs. striking is narrow minded? What qualifies you to correct HIS statements with your "The greatest defense is usually a good offense..." ???

But then say Ground and pound or choke him out...Break or tweak his joints??? You can choke him out in "seconds"???? and that's fast enough to prevent him from stabbing someone???THAT'S going to beat a knifer?

Keep dreaming silly crap like that...

Don't call it "correct" Get my point?

You've been around here a while and yet still don't GET IT! A coward with a knife will run from two little old ladies that fight back. Another kind of coward will stab you in the back when you least expect it but a knifer with INTENT is WAY more dangerous than your prepared for. You need a REALITY CHECK.

**EmptyneSs** · 07-17-2006, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

My Job?

Well, I am happy to say that after a brief (three week) layoff, I am back to training our nation's bravest and finest warriors for war. I teach weapons (small arms from the M9 up to the Mk19 automatic grenade launcher), convoy live fire exercises, urban warfare, and CQC. In other words, I'm back to doing what I love to do - I'm just doing it for a different company than before. Although it's not part of my new contract, I am also training soldiers in Modern Army Combatives as a volunteer, and I train amateur boxers on a volunteer basis as well. I train pros for profit, but right now that business is slow. I'm also spending a lot more time teaching survival skills for my own company, Odyssey Adventure Group. In fact, Knifethrower will be coming out for a visit in a couple of weeks to take part in our survival training camp! Looking forward to meeting you in person, knifethrower!

And jubaji, it wasn't meant to rekindle any arguments. Just like the first time around, it's my own personal opinion and experience - regardless of whether or not anyone agrees.

were do you train out of mike? are you at tims academy?

**J-Luck** · 07-17-2006, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tant01

Still a moron I see...

What makes you think grappling Vs. striking is narrow minded? What qualifies you to correct HIS statements with your "The greatest defense is usually a good offense..." ???

But then say Ground and pound or choke him out...Break or tweak his joints??? You can choke him out in "seconds"???? and that's fast enough to prevent him from stabbing someone???THAT'S going to beat a knifer?

Keep dreaming silly crap like that...

Don't call it "correct" Get my point?

You've been around here a while and yet still don't GET IT! A coward with a knife will run from two little old ladies that fight back. Another kind of coward will stab you in the back when you least expect it but a knifer with INTENT is WAY more dangerous than your prepared for. You need a REALITY CHECK.

Never was a moron... but thanks for the input... or is it self reflection... THAT would make more sense!

.

It's not silly crap... if you paid attention I was debating a point, but later said(where you quoted genius

) that it's better to be well rounded. And I made my points, and all you did was say they were stupid, nothing meaningful like why they were. So untill you do you're not worth responding to. And I also said people should carry a knife on them... it is one of the best ways to counter another knife short of a firearm or running... so don't tell me what I think... I'll tell you. Everything in context... everything in context.

I've been stabbed before, and made it out of the situation... What's your experience with the area? I'd love to know.

**J-Luck** · 07-17-2006, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tant01

Still a moron I see...

What makes you think grappling Vs. striking is narrow minded? What qualifies you to correct HIS statements with your "The greatest defense is usually a good offense..." ???

But then say Ground and pound or choke him out...Break or tweak his joints??? You can choke him out in "seconds"???? and that's fast enough to prevent him from stabbing someone???THAT'S going to beat a knifer?

Keep dreaming silly crap like that...

Don't call it "correct" Get my point?

You've been around here a while and yet still don't GET IT! A coward with a knife will run from two little old ladies that fight back. Another kind of coward will stab you in the back when you least expect it but a knifer with INTENT is WAY more dangerous than your prepared for. You need a REALITY CHECK.

I said USUALLY a good offense is a good defense... I didn't say it is all the time and I didn't correct him... pay attention ok?

My point was if I can choke someone out in 2-3 sec, most people are not going to continue to try their chances with the knife, even bjj practitioners, when a good choke is applied freak out a little, it's human reaction. Try being someone who's not trained and not able to breathe.

Also(it's just funny cause you're the one who quoted me) I said if I let it get that far... meaning I wouldn't want him to have the knife on him when he's on the ground. I would try to have him disarmed by that point.

**Tant01** · 07-17-2006, 02:05 PM

"Moron" was generous on my part, you're an idiot... or an imbecile.

Being stabbed by a knife doesn't make you an authority on the subject, it makes you a "VICTIM".

I've been playing with knives since I was in the cub scouts more than thirty years ago.

**Tant01** · 07-17-2006, 02:07 PM

Two or three seconds is more than enough time to kill you twice with a knife. So, grapple on buddy...

**J-Luck** · 07-17-2006, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tant01

"Moron" was generous on my part, you're an idiot... or an imbecile.

Being stabbed by a knife doesn't make you an authority on the subject, it makes you a "VICTIM".

I've been playing with knives since I was in the cub scouts more than thirty years ago.

First off, you and this self reflection has to stop. I can't stand it! It makes me upset!

.

I walked away(I was slashed... sorry I thought I said slashed...) and he was on the ground with a broken wrist, and a broken nose(once I had him down he bit my ankle,

of all things, so I stomped his face. Though I was bleeding from the bite so I guess it was a pretty good tactic on his part?) Of course I'm just ASSUMING these were broken, but I've seen enough broken noses to know, and i heard the wrist snap and saw it.

Playin with knives means nothing lol.

**J-Luck** · 07-17-2006, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tant01

Two or three seconds is more than enough time to kill you twice with a knife. So, grapple on buddy...

You must be stupid huh? Or is your reading comp a little off? Maybe it's you becoming senile?

I said I think everyone should be well rounded... you'll remember from my posts I'm an amateur boxer right now. I love striking. Also am starting Muay Thai very soon. I also am going to be training Krav Marga and hope to get into other combatives. I have also stated that running, guns, and other knives are the best counters to knives. I merely said that worst comes to worse... I'd choke them out. That's worst case scenerio. But that being said, If I'm in that scenerio... I like my chances better than theirs. I'm glad that you are one of the few people who can think clearly enough whilst being in a tight, powerful choke to make tactical, logical moves. Maybe you can teach everyone else?

For the LAST TIME... take what I say in context, and respond to what I say in it's entirety. I dont think grappling is the end all be all... never even suggested it. I only stated what's in my above paragraph. Put on your reading glasses when you get to the comp please.

**Uke** · 07-17-2006, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Uke, there are benefits beyond that, but some people might misconstrue things and think that we were trying to say that grappling is better than everything else in the world and turn this into an MMA thread.

But Mike, you and everyone else here still have yet to list even one benefit that GROUND GRAPPLING has outside of the already established points.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

The benefit to learning anything in fighting is so that it doesn't catch you off guard when it inevitably happens. Goes for striking, knife fighting, shooting, and yes - the ground. I've already talked about the various grappling moves I've used in real-world fights. Since I came out unhurt in all of those and the other guy was forced to stop trying to hurt me, I'd say that qualifies them as both functional and worthwhile.

I believe you've used them Mike. But I also believe that the people that you've used them on had little to no training or were inebriated. Being that you are/were a bouncer, the place that you would most likely encounter violence is at work. You're there to keep the peace and deal with violence, which means you expect it. Arm-barring and choking out bar patrons is hardly the same thing as being accosted with a knife when you don't expect violence. Its also very different in the fact that you wouldn't feel comfortable attempting GROUND GRAPPLING submissions without fellow bouncers watching your back. But it seems that you feel that just because you've had successes with using GG techniques that it makes them suitable for SD/UC. People could go out and start using WWF wrestling techniques and win IF they're fighting people who aren't trained to fight back. Then people could say that clothes-lines and drop kicks are SD because they've won a fight using them. Try that against someone at your own skill level or better and see how useful those techniques are to you. Remember, SD/UC principles state that you train to fight as if every opponent is as good or better than you. Anything else would be the old "Guys on the street don't train and don't know this or that" debate.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Once again, you have to be careful not to assume that a tool (or in this case, entire method) is useless just because of how you'd like it to fit within your own style.

I haven't seen anyone here state that any technique or range was "useless". Just because posters here are distinguishing between techniques that are better suited for sport and techniques that are better suited for survival combat doesn't mean that anyone has labeled any technique as "useless". This was established a couple of posts ago.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

And if you can't see the value in learning it beyond learning how to stand back up (which, incidentally is pretty easy to do once you've choked the opponent into unconciousness...), then no amount of explaining it will help.

If shooting in, clinching and choking out an opponent is so easy and cut and dry, then why is it necessary to have rounds in MMA? A match shouldn't last more than a minute if you just have to shoot in, clinch, take your opponent down and then simply choke him into unconsciousness, right? Yet, many of the matches go to decision after several rounds. And why would you have to go to the ground to choke a man out when there are many ways to choke him out on your feet? I'm just wondering what the "going to the ground" part accomplishes and why it was necessary.

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

You'll just have to wait until someone who's really good on the ground and who has an attitude like Boar or KOTF have been talking about (someone who's willing to hurt you in a fight and has the skills to back it up) comes along and shows you how screwed you are if you can't see past your own prejudices. You may not want to accept it, but there may come a time when the other guy is good enough, well-trained enough, and armed enough that he simply won't let you off the ground. What then?

No one, at least not me, ever thought that anyone would "let me" do anything in real fight. I'd have to earn every inch and every measure of success. I don't expect the man to let me off the ground. But, when I wrote that the value of BJJ/ground grappling was to reverse submission and chokes and more importantly LEARNING HOW TO ESCAPE THE MOUNT AND GUARD POSITIONS to get back to your feet, what part of that didn't address the above question? So are you saying that everytime that someone escapes the guard or mount its because the grappler LET them? I hope you were kidding. And if the other man is armed, then its a race to who's going to die first because like I stated before any real SD/UC man stays armed everywhere he goes. Nothing deters a flintknapper from being armed, but I'm sure most people here don't even know what or why that is. And even if they look it up, it will be a long time before it will mean anything to them.

**Uke** · 07-17-2006, 10:48 PM

Well, Tant01 did an excellent job of replying to J-Luck, except that J-Luck is cool with me and I wouldn't call him a moron. But J-Luck, you have overlooked a lot of what I've written. First, you assume that you'll be able to get to grappling range before you get hit by a weapon(knife,brick,brass knuckles,).

Second, Tant01 is completely correct when he said that 2 or 3 seconds is more than enough time to kill you twice. And I've got news for you, it takes longer to choke out a man than 2 or 3 seconds. I don't know who's been spreading that myth, but that's exactly what it is: A myth. We've all seen the best ground grapplers choke out guys and its always taken more than 10 seconds, maybe more. If you're able to eventually tap out, that same energy could be spent stabbing the choker to death. There is no choke position that you cannot be stabbed from. And while chokes are a part of today's liberal and politically correct techniques, chokes aren't emphasized in reality based urban survival training as it takes too much time to work. A neck should be wrenched and broken before it should be choked. In real survival combat, there are few chokes, submissions or holds. They require you to devote too much time and attention to just one man when your situation is kill or be killed. Survival combat emphasizes weapons so that your first blow can be your last blow. And a weapon is the ultimate anti grappling equalizer.

But then again many here have expressed their dislike for the reality of survival combat and label it as overkill and unnecessary. Tell that to a woman who has been raped and has gotten AIDS because of it, or to a man who is hanging from a rope because of the color of his skin before the weight of his body snaps his neck.

I agree that the best defense is a good offense, J-Luck. I agree 100%. But shooting in to throw, take-down or wrestle an opponent is NOT a good offense. You shoot in on a man who has a weapon but hasn't yet made it visible and you're going to die if he knows what he's doing. We can all sit around and pretend that you and other grapplers wouldn't shoot in or rush to a clinch, but that's untrue as your grappling skills are not effective until you get into close quarter range, meaning YOU CAN'T GRAPPLE UNLESS YOU'RE CLOSE ENOUGH TO GRAB. That also means that you're now close enough to be struck, stabbed or thrown. And don't fall into that rut where you begin acting like I stated that ground grappling is useless. Stick to what was written like you always have.

Also, stop lumping judo throws and sweeps into this debate, as this debate is all about GROUND GRAPPLING and its application in survival combat. The throws and sweeps you've been talking about are NOT newaza, so they have no place in this debate.

And even though we see things differently J-Luck, I appreciate the fact that we can always agree to disagree with respect. You always post with integrity, and that's why we're cool. Keep it up.

**Garland** · 07-18-2006, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tant01

Being stabbed by a knife doesn't make you an authority on the subject, it makes you a "VICTIM".

That's not PC, you bastard...Victim is offensive, use "survivor" you insensitive ass munch.

seriously, I've been a stab-ee before, and I don't care....do you believe that they actually have tried to phase out the word "victim" to fucking "survivor"? This PC shit has gone too fucking far, you know what it is right??? Ever read Orwell...it's fucking NEWSPEAK, man...they're trying to control our thoughts through language...

**treelizard** · 07-18-2006, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Garland

That's not PC, you bastard...Victim is offensive, use "survivor" you insensitive ass munch.

seriously, I've been a stab-ee before, and I don't care....do you believe that they actually have tried to phase out the word "victim" to fucking "survivor"? This PC shit has gone too fucking far, you know what it is right??? Ever read Orwell...it's fucking NEWSPEAK, man...they're trying to control our thoughts through language...

I prefer the word survivor. Much more empowering and can help people break out of the mentality that contributed to them being stabbed/raped/beaten/whatever in the first place.

Being a victim is a state of mind.

**EmptyneSs** · 07-18-2006, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by Uke

Well, Tant01 did an excellent job of replying to J-Luck, except that J-Luck is cool with me and I wouldn't call him a moron. But J-Luck, you have overlooked a lot of what I've written. First, you assume that you'll be able to get to grappling range before you get hit by a weapon(knife,brick,brass knuckles,).

Second, Tant01 is completely correct when he said that 2 or 3 seconds is more than enough time to kill you twice. And I've got news for you, it takes longer to choke out a man than 2 or 3 seconds. I don't know who's been spreading that myth, but that's exactly what it is: A myth. We've all seen the best ground grapplers choke out guys and its always taken more than 10 seconds, maybe more. If you're able to eventually tap out, that same energy could be spent stabbing the choker to death. There is no choke position that you cannot be stabbed from. And while chokes are a part of today's liberal and politically correct techniques, chokes aren't emphasized in reality based urban survival training as it takes too much time to work. A neck should be wrenched and broken before it should be choked. In real survival combat, there are few chokes, submissions or holds. They require you to devote too much time and attention to just one man when your situation is kill or be killed. Survival combat emphasizes weapons so that your first blow can be your last blow. And a weapon is the ultimate anti grappling equalizer.

But then again many here have expressed their dislike for the reality of survival combat and label it as overkill and unnecessary. Tell that to a woman who has been raped and has gotten AIDS because of it, or to a man who is hanging from a rope because of the color of his skin before the weight of his body snaps his neck.

I agree that the best defense is a good offense, J-Luck. I agree 100%. But shooting in to throw, take-down or wrestle an opponent is NOT a good offense. You shoot in on a man who has a weapon but hasn't yet made it visible and you're going to die if he knows what he's doing. We can all sit around and pretend that you and other grapplers wouldn't shoot in or rush to a clinch, but that's untrue as your grappling skills are not effective until you get into close quarter range, meaning YOU CAN'T GRAPPLE UNLESS YOU'RE CLOSE ENOUGH TO GRAB. That also means that you're now close enough to be struck, stabbed or thrown. And don't fall into that rut where you begin acting like I stated that ground grappling is useless. Stick to what was written like you always have.

Also, stop lumping judo throws and sweeps into this debate, as this debate is all about GROUND GRAPPLING and its application in survival combat. The throws and sweeps you've been talking about are NOT newaza, so they have no place in this debate.

And even though we see things differently J-Luck, I appreciate the fact that we can always agree to disagree with respect. You always post with integrity, and that's why we're cool. Keep it up.

damn, look at this guy^ he is still dispensing advice on grappling when he doesnt even train in it.

and no, watching the instructional dvds you paid emin boztep for about anti grappling dont make you an experienced grappler.