Katas: Any value for *real* combat? - Page 4

KirkhamsEbooks. · 01-04-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodhisattva

"Narrow Minded" would reference a person who had little experience with the subject at hand, and is unwilling to change his limited view in the face of evidence.

Honestly, neither describes me very well on the subject of Kata/Forms/Hyuengs.

I did craploads of kata. I dedicated myself. For a long time.

I met a man doing teaching seminars once. He said he was approached by a lady before the seminar who said

"I don't know what I'm doing here or what you can teach me. I've been teaching for 10 years'

He replied, "Madam, I'm not saying this is the case, but it could be you've had the same one year's experience 10 times"

Rick

bodhisattva · 01-04-2008, 02:09 PM

The question is "any value for real combat" (I'm looking at it right there on my screen) and my answer was pretty much :

"NO. No value whatsoever for combat, spiritual growth, or health or anything."

And in response to your post, I'll adjust my answer by adding:

"Not even for somebody"

bodhisattva · 01-04-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkhamsEbooks.

The US Military seems to teach "Martial" Arts quite effectively

Rick

Yeah, why, they started teaching BJJ and Clinch tactics in Alive environments very recently!

Not a single Kata in that training.

KirkhamsEbooks. · 01-04-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodhisattva

Yeah, why, they started teaching BJJ and Clinch tactics in Alive environments very recently!

Not a single Kata in that training.

The word martial means war. We've been kicking butt for 200 years. Your statement was where to find martial arts that works

Tant01 · 01-05-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodhisattva

The question is "any value for real combat" (I'm looking at it right there on my screen) and my answer was pretty much :

"NO. No value whatsoever for combat, spiritual growth, or health or anything."

And in response to your post, I'll adjust my answer by adding:

"Not even for somebody"

What a RIOT!

Mike says duck, bodhi goes quack...

It's no secret that NOT EVERYONE appreciates so called kata but there are benifits to it specifically relating to "real" fighting. Your blindness to the obvious won't change the reality.
If KATA is so useless why do BJJ instructors teach the elbow escape drill?

That is only one "THING" from an old Judo kata still being used in modern combat sports...

YOUR KATA training may have been of no value to YOU but your foundation for this particular debate is nothing but rubble...

LMAO

Tant01 · 01-05-2008, 03:11 PM

It is () significant that you know that Jigoro Kano thought highly of nage and katame no kata and preferred to them under the combined title of randori no kata.
His insistence on this term should tell you immediately that they are inseparably linked to randori. The founder thought of these two kata as the basic foundations to every Judoist's skill -- fundamental building blocks by which a Judoist might develop his techniques as broadly as possible. He expected all Judoists to make a regular study of kata.

Still another important issue about kata is that the founder did not want kata to be purely a ceremony. In all his technical notes, the underlying idea is "take the ceremony out of kata." What this implies is that, while kata is an excellent manner by which to display or exhibit Judo, this should not become the fundamental purpose of kata. Kata properly applied belongs in the training of all Judoists; kata is a training method, a "tool," if you will. By the founder's thought, full Judo maturity cannot be achieved without substantial doses of kata applied throughout the Judo life of each Judoist.

D.F Draeger.

darrianation · 01-07-2008, 09:28 PM

The truth of the matter is that many folks bring to training their presumptions and those presumptions drive their perceptions and their perception drives their training including the skills they choose, how they train them and even their gear selection i.e. type of weapons, caliber, knife selection, the grip they choose, type of holster, etc. This by definition is limiting by nature and badly skews the training model.

The biggest problem as it relates to failure in a real world event is when you get the fight you didn’t train for. For example, let’s say all your training revolves around unarmed solutions and you find yourself surrounded by three subjects wielding guns, knives, or baseball bats…you have a big problem. Or your training has been principally done on a square shooting range from a static squared off stance at cardboard cut-outs from a stable two handed position and you find yourself being whacked from behind by a guy swinging a baseball bat or you turn a corner at the local mall to find a gunman standing 10 feet away with his gun pointed at your head or at one of your kids and your gun is still in it holster under your garment…you have a big problem.

What we find in training that has been lead by faulty perceptions has a tendency to explode out of control when those initial conditions change unexpectedly because of the chaotic properties and unknown variables that plague real world events. Basically the bottom line is, folks simply don’t know what they don’t know.

It is easy to deceive one’s self by building up fortresses to protect misguided beliefs. It is easy to get caught up in an inaccurate reality and blindly follow flawed ideas and concepts. No matter how much one tests these flawed ideas within their current training model they cannot recognize the inherent flaws and will bend over backwards to ignore the dissonance between their faulty perception and independent reality. As long as no one is actually trying to hurt them, they will be able to ignore the inaccuracies and when someone intends them harm they will not realize the problem until it's too late.

KirkhamsEbooks. · 01-08-2008, 12:28 PM

Boils down to what I've always felt is scenerio training or environmental training. I've even recommended people training at home not move the furniture all the time learn to use it unless of course you have time to move it when the burglar is in the house

Rick

bodhisattva · 01-08-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirkhamsEbooks.

Boils down to what I've always felt is scenerio training or environmental training. I've even recommended people training at home not move the furniture all the time learn to use it unless of course you have time to move it when the burglar is in the house

Rick

Sometimes when we're working our boxing game, we'll put a bean bag chair out on the floor - one goal while fighting is to force your opponent to fall over the bean bag chair with footwork and distraction.

It's a great skill. A lot of people have poor environmental awareness - may as well learn to actively use that against them.

You'd be surprised how often you can make your opponent back up over the bean bag chair with a flurry of shots.

bodhisattva · 01-08-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Nice research, Tanto. I used to have several Draeger books, but lost them in a house fire some years ago.

Rest assured, though, that your information will quickly (albeit erroneously) be dismissed by Bodhi because he's not really arguing facts or truth or anything so trivial. He's arguing what he thinks - his own prejudices - which are far more important than what actually "is."

No, I'm arguing what "is" in fighting. You are arguing that what "Is" in Kata also "Is" in fighting.

Which is silly, because fighting and kata are obviously different to anyone watching.

I'm also arguing my experiences. I spent years doing kata. They are pointless!

bodhisattva · 01-08-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tant01

It is () significant that you know that Jigoro Kano thought highly of nage and katame no kata and preferred to them under the combined title of randori no kata.
His insistence on this term should tell you immediately that they are inseparably linked to randori. The founder thought of these two kata as the basic foundations to every Judoist's skill -- fundamental building blocks by which a Judoist might develop his techniques as broadly as possible. He expected all Judoists to make a regular study of kata.

Still another important issue about kata is that the founder did not want kata to be purely a ceremony. In all his technical notes, the underlying idea is "take the ceremony out of kata." What this implies is that, while kata is an excellent manner by which to display or exhibit Judo, this should not become the fundamental purpose of kata. Kata properly applied belongs in the training of all Judoists; kata is a training method, a "tool," if you will. By the founder's thought, full Judo maturity cannot be achieved without substantial doses of kata applied throughout the Judo life of each Judoist.

D.F Draeger.

Draeger can say what he likes - I still don't find many Judo schools who compete who really care about Kata.

No matter what Draeger said "back in the day" it doesn't change that fact.

darrianation · 01-09-2008, 11:43 AM

What I was eluding to above in my previous post in a really really round about way is, why is this even a issue? It seems to me that most folks including the traditional MA establishment to a large degree have come to the realization of the irrelevance of Kata in combat application.

KirkhamsEbooks. · 01-13-2008, 02:29 PM

I believe they call it bunkai and I'm probably spelling it wrong. It's a deep analysis of kata looking for techniques. Again the problem I see with this is physical movements without a written explanation could be taken out of context all types of ways

Rick

Tant01 · 01-13-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

....

..Holy shit. People think I'm arrogant.

LOL

Informed people think you know what you're talking about... Most of the time.

hahahahahaha...

Tant01 · 01-15-2008, 12:15 PM

[quote=bodhisattva;288686]Draeger can say what he likes - I still don't find many Judo schools who compete who really care about Kata.

No matter what Draeger said "back in the day" it doesn't change that fact.[/QUOTE]

Interesting you should mention the FACT that many Judo schools ignore kata these days!

As a matter of FACT Mr. Draeger started that very article off with a similar observation.

And I quote; "Kata? Not in this dojo. We only do fightin' Judo here. It's bad enough you have to learn some of it just before ya' wanna pass your Dan exam; but after that.....forget it!"

The more things change the more they stay the same...

01-04-2008, 02:09 PM	#47 (permalink)
bodhisattva Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: nowhere Posts: 586 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	The question is "any value for real combat" (I'm looking at it right there on my screen) and my answer was pretty much : "NO. No value whatsoever for combat, spiritual growth, or health or anything." And in response to your post, I'll adjust my answer by adding: "Not even for somebody" __________________ St. Louis MMA Training Club - MMA Boxing / Clinch / Submission Grappling / Wrestling Gym Portland MMA Training Club: MMA Boxing / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / Greco Roman Wrestling

01-05-2008, 03:11 PM	#51 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 5,076 Groans: 0 Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts	Pro Kata It is () significant that you know that Jigoro Kano thought highly of nage and katame no kata and preferred to them under the combined title of randori no kata. His insistence on this term should tell you immediately that they are inseparably linked to randori. The founder thought of these two kata as the basic foundations to every Judoist's skill -- fundamental building blocks by which a Judoist might develop his techniques as broadly as possible. He expected all Judoists to make a regular study of kata. Still another important issue about kata is that the founder did not want kata to be purely a ceremony. In all his technical notes, the underlying idea is "take the ceremony out of kata." What this implies is that, while kata is an excellent manner by which to display or exhibit Judo, this should not become the fundamental purpose of kata. Kata properly applied belongs in the training of all Judoists; kata is a training method, a "tool," if you will. By the founder's thought, full Judo maturity cannot be achieved without substantial doses of kata applied throughout the Judo life of each Judoist. D.F Draeger. __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

01-07-2008, 09:28 PM	#52 (permalink)
darrianation Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,160 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	The truth of the matter is that many folks bring to training their presumptions and those presumptions drive their perceptions and their perception drives their training including the skills they choose, how they train them and even their gear selection i.e. type of weapons, caliber, knife selection, the grip they choose, type of holster, etc. This by definition is limiting by nature and badly skews the training model. The biggest problem as it relates to failure in a real world event is when you get the fight you didn’t train for. For example, let’s say all your training revolves around unarmed solutions and you find yourself surrounded by three subjects wielding guns, knives, or baseball bats…you have a big problem. Or your training has been principally done on a square shooting range from a static squared off stance at cardboard cut-outs from a stable two handed position and you find yourself being whacked from behind by a guy swinging a baseball bat or you turn a corner at the local mall to find a gunman standing 10 feet away with his gun pointed at your head or at one of your kids and your gun is still in it holster under your garment…you have a big problem. What we find in training that has been lead by faulty perceptions has a tendency to explode out of control when those initial conditions change unexpectedly because of the chaotic properties and unknown variables that plague real world events. Basically the bottom line is, folks simply don’t know what they don’t know. It is easy to deceive one’s self by building up fortresses to protect misguided beliefs. It is easy to get caught up in an inaccurate reality and blindly follow flawed ideas and concepts. No matter how much one tests these flawed ideas within their current training model they cannot recognize the inherent flaws and will bend over backwards to ignore the dissonance between their faulty perception and independent reality. As long as no one is actually trying to hurt them, they will be able to ignore the inaccuracies and when someone intends them harm they will not realize the problem until it's too late. __________________ The law of tyranny: 1. Any power that can be abused will be abused 2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it. 3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail. Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

01-08-2008, 12:28 PM	#53 (permalink)
KirkhamsEbooks. Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 101 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Boils down to what I've always felt is scenerio training or environmental training. I've even recommended people training at home not move the furniture all the time learn to use it unless of course you have time to move it when the burglar is in the house Rick __________________ Step by Step Learning Martial Arts Internal Energy Strikes by Kirkham Self-Defense and Fear Medley of Products and Information for Martial Artists and Non-Martial Artists Self_Defense_Tips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

01-09-2008, 11:43 AM	#57 (permalink)
darrianation Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,160 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	What I was eluding to above in my previous post in a really really round about way is, why is this even a issue? It seems to me that most folks including the traditional MA establishment to a large degree have come to the realization of the irrelevance of Kata in combat application. __________________ The law of tyranny: 1. Any power that can be abused will be abused 2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it. 3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail. Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

01-13-2008, 02:29 PM	#58 (permalink)
KirkhamsEbooks. Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 101 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe they call it bunkai and I'm probably spelling it wrong. It's a deep analysis of kata looking for techniques. Again the problem I see with this is physical movements without a written explanation could be taken out of context all types of ways Rick __________________ Step by Step Learning Martial Arts Internal Energy Strikes by Kirkham Self-Defense and Fear Medley of Products and Information for Martial Artists and Non-Martial Artists Self_Defense_Tips-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

01-15-2008, 12:15 PM	#60 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 5,076 Groans: 0 Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts	[quote=bodhisattva;288686]Draeger can say what he likes - I still don't find many Judo schools who compete who really care about Kata. No matter what Draeger said "back in the day" it doesn't change that fact.[/QUOTE] Interesting you should mention the FACT that many Judo schools ignore kata these days! As a matter of FACT Mr. Draeger started that very article off with a similar observation. And I quote; "Kata? Not in this dojo. We only do fightin' Judo here. It's bad enough you have to learn some of it just before ya' wanna pass your Dan exam; but after that.....forget it!" The more things change the more they stay the same... __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

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