Banned Weapons - Page 3

Tant01 · 02-18-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

It is just a stick. That's kinda my point. Why replace a $5 stick with a $20 stick?

I don't know if anyone spins them combatively or not - I was referencing the quote earlier that talked about how much extra power comes from the spin. And as far as fitting the forearm to block? I think that puts you in a defensive mindset right from the start. Far more effective than blocking might be smashing an attacker's hand to get him to drop his weapon altogether. Certainly more effective than blocking, only to let him try again. The PR-24 is one example where the gimmick took more away from the weapon than it gave, I think.

The quote was from; The PR-24 Police Baton: a Training Manual for Law Enforcement Officers, 1976, 1981, Richard R. Starrett. Monadnock Lifetime Products, Inc. New Hampshire....

(if I didn't refrence the source)

They know better now with the extending type being the preferred weapon these days...

Tant01 · 02-18-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I think they probably knew better then, but someone saw a chance to cash in on the Ninja craze and sell tonfas to cops...

yup............... exactly. And they did.

Kenpodog · 02-18-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Great Post, Tant. Actually you could have been talking about any kind of strike!

KE = 1/2 (mass) x (velocity)^2

An small increase in velocity produces a noticeable increase in KE.

Look at Bruce Lee or better yet (and less controversial) Dekkers.

Nice!!
If Mass is constant and velocity is increased by 4 times,
then Kinetic (damaging) energy is increased by 16 times.
I see why you mentioned Bruce!!

Velocity = rate at which an object changes its position
Acceleration = rate at which an object changes its velocity

Force = (Mass * Acceleration)
Work = (Force * Distance)
Power = (Work / Time)

The ultimate goal is to deliver Kinetic Energy with Power!!

**shaolin-warrior** · 02-18-2006, 11:52 PM

Ive trained with tonfa as one of my weapons, I cant tell you how easy it is to hit your knee or elbow or wrist while spinning to attack or use them as a blocking tool, Give me a stick any day.

medic06 · 02-19-2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Great Post, Tant. Actually you could have been talking about any kind of strike!

KE = 1/2 (mass) x (velocity)^2

An small increase in velocity produces a noticeable increase in KE.

Look at Bruce Lee or better yet (and less controversial) Dekkers.

the problem is with spinning it's only the mass of the stick while with the swing there is bodyweight to contend with.

Kenpodog · 02-19-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Great Post, Tant. Actually you could have been talking about any kind of strike!

KE = 1/2 (mass) x (velocity)^2

An small increase in velocity produces a noticeable increase in KE.

Look at Bruce Lee or better yet (and less controversial) Dekkers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenpodog

Nice!!
If Mass is constant and velocity is increased by 4 times,
then Kinetic (damaging) energy is increased by 16 times.
I see why you mentioned Bruce!!

Velocity = rate at which an object changes its position
Acceleration = rate at which an object changes its velocity

Force = (Mass * Acceleration)
Work = (Force * Distance)
Power = (Work / Time)

The ultimate goal is to deliver Kinetic Energy with Power!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by medic06

the problem is with spinning it's only the mass of the stick while with the swing there is bodyweight to contend with.

ah ha!!
Another piece of the puzzle,
MOMENTUM (I call it Back-Up Mass):

Back-Up Mass = (Mass * Velocity)

Oh No, did someone mention spinning??
Torque has just entered the building:

Pivot point, distance from the pivot point, Momentum Arm, Angular acceleration, etc...

It's been way too long....................

Tom Yum · 02-19-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I'd like to introduce a new theory to the martial arts world. We'll call it Mike's Theory of Street Effectiveness and the Use of mathematical Equations in Fighting. Here goes:

Your effectiveness as a fighter can be measured by the ratio of the time you spend training, and the time you spend trying to justify your results with math. The more hours you spend actively involved in meaningful training ("t") in relation to the time you spend trying to quantify the results of those hours using higher math (

) will result in the "Effectiveness Quotient" of your fighting abilities. Thus "t" divided by equals WHO THE HELL CARES?!!

Sorry all. I couldn't hold it in any longer.

Sorry Mike, my post must have brought out all the nerds

.

The main concept I was getting at was that velocity is a key factor in hitting hard, more so than mass.

BoarSpear · 02-19-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Do you think the martial artists and fighters whose names keep popping up on the list of "greats" ever once sat down and applied these things to their own training? Can you see Joe Frazier ever pontificating with a trainer about how his specific mass and velocity would combine to squeeze an extra bit of zip out of his hook? Can you see Bruce Lee with a slide rule out by his heavy bag (and Taky or Dan standing by with a radar gun to clock the speed of his kicks) trying to measure the exact force exerted by a side kick? I bet the whole reason Chuck Liddell knocked out Randy was because he knew exactly how to figure his momentum, kinetic energy, and velocity and Randy didn't.

Exactly!! This is like the scholar who adds all sort of mysterious meaning to a simple art like Pa Pan Chang and adds layers of non martial crap supposedly teaching you about the martial art until you get Baqua...something so complex and removed from its original purpose that virtually no one can use it anymore.

The best way to learn to fight, is to fight...the best way to learn to hit, is to hit...the best way to learn to throw is to throw...the act should validate itself without any math or mystery...have it done to you so you can experience it, then try to replicate the idea on an opponent...

eXcessiveForce · 02-19-2006, 02:24 PM

I can so see bruce with a radar gun trying to figure out what he needed to do to punch faster.

But the guy was a bit peculiar

Kenpodog · 02-19-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Do we really need a study in physics to tell us that it hurts a lot worse to get whacked by a stick than a twirling PR-24?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Your effectiveness as a fighter can be measured by the ratio of the time you spend training, and the time you spend trying to justify your results with math. The more hours you spend actively involved in meaningful training ("t") in relation to the time you spend trying to quantify the results of those hours using higher math ( ) will result in the "Effectiveness Quotient" of your fighting abilities. Thus "t" divided by equals WHO THE HELL CARES?!!

If you don't care about the math then stop ranting??

Do I make post like:

Here we go again,
Do I have to study the Chinese language for years
just to throw a front kick, etc...

Of course not.

That type of thinking (or lack of) is small.
What's it like being the center of the universe??

Tant01 · 02-19-2006, 04:28 PM

We all know it's not about how much force you can create with what weapon or the speed that you can deliver a particular strike... It's about force VECTORING! You know, being able to hit the target with whatever force you have at whatever speed you are going...

BoarSpear · 02-19-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tant01

We all know it's not about how much force you can create with what weapon or the speed that you can deliver a particular strike... It's about force VECTORING! You know, being able to hit the target with whatever force you have at whatever speed you are going...

HMPFF mongo think it all about putting boot to knee and club to cranium. pencil good for stabbing though

pen work better though...

medic06 · 02-19-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamuraiGuy

While admittedly having never trained with nunchuks... how are they going to be better than a stick?... Just dont see it... the range isnt their, I believe you have less control... hmm... enlighten me.

Let's see Nunchukas. . ..

Not as powerful as a nice stick the same length. . . .

Not quite as good at binding as a length of rope or chain. . . . .

Not as much leverage as a stick the same length.

Fairly long learning curve to learn. . . .

Has a tendency to bounce back at weird angles when you do hit. . . .

Oh, and no where near as legal as a walking cane

BoarSpear · 02-19-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medic06

Oh, and no where near as legal as a walking cane

Like the cane in the pic of me holding todays paper i posted?

medic06 · 02-19-2006, 05:10 PM

yup! How about the newspaper rolled up real tightly. I saw a video of Dan Inosanto breaking a board with a rolled up newspaper, but I never played around with it. Any thoughts?

as far a applying Physics, it's fun to have an academic discourse AFTER the training is done to help understand the why, but I agree it should never replace training. After all, all of these equations were developed using empirical evidence (as in testing and experimentation).

02-19-2006, 02:24 PM	#39 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,827	I can so see bruce with a radar gun trying to figure out what he needed to do to punch faster. But the guy was a bit peculiar __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

02-19-2006, 04:28 PM	#41 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 4,915	Rodger that... We all know it's not about how much force you can create with what weapon or the speed that you can deliver a particular strike... It's about force VECTORING! You know, being able to hit the target with whatever force you have at whatever speed you are going... __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

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02-18-2006, 11:52 PM	#34 (permalink)
shaolin-warrior Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 417	Ive trained with tonfa as one of my weapons, I cant tell you how easy it is to hit your knee or elbow or wrist while spinning to attack or use them as a blocking tool, Give me a stick any day.

02-19-2006, 05:10 PM	#45 (permalink)
medic06 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,028	yup! How about the newspaper rolled up real tightly. I saw a video of Dan Inosanto breaking a board with a rolled up newspaper, but I never played around with it. Any thoughts? as far a applying Physics, it's fun to have an academic discourse AFTER the training is done to help understand the why, but I agree it should never replace training. After all, all of these equations were developed using empirical evidence (as in testing and experimentation).

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