EmptyneSs

i was reading up on this article about Bernhard Goetz, who shot 4 men in self defense while he was about to be mugged by them on the subway. im sure alot of people already know about this guy, but im also sure alot of people dont, and his story is pretty interesting as it pertains to "street self defense". the article also talks about the trial that fallowed. what do you guys think about this guy and what happened? i personally believe if bernhard hadnt been armed he would not have survived, and im glad that he was able to defend himself in his moment of need. he had a concealed weapon on him, but it saved his life.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Uke

I don't believe that he would not have survived. The teens didn't even present weapons. Later on, it was found after a search that they had screwdrivers, but they never brandished them and Goetz himself said he believed them to be unarmed. This is the exact argument that anti-gun advocates use to show why every knucklehead out there can't have a gun. Had Goetz just pulled the gun, they most likely would have run. If he didn't have a gun, all he had to do was hand over his wallet. Some idiots will hurt you even if you are compliant, but the majority don't want to compound the situation by adding a murder charge. They usually just want to score.

If you panic at the first sign of aggression, you have no business with a gun. Reacting before you let the scenario play out to any degree rules out any discretion you could have used.

Fear for you life doesn't justify deadly force. Someone assaulting you with or without a weapon does. And even then you have to show that the person was intending to use force and not just intimidation. Without them producing a weapon or touching you its just a verbal altercation.

Now I'm not suggesting that anyone wait around until you have a gun to your head, but Goetz wasn't afraid for his life. He just didn't feel like taking anybody's sh!t that day. Let's not forget that after Goetz shot all of them, he went to one of them and tried shooting him again but the gun was empty. He was clearly angry, not afraid.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

J-Luck

Oh, God... wikipedia... you can't quote wikinews or wikipedia, they are not reliable sources. Any information on them can be completly changed or altered by anyone. The stories can also be false to being with.

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

J-Luck

I checked this story on other new sources... it seems to check out. I think I agree with Uke in the sense that he was just angry, not afraid. I mean, he was mugged twice before, and one can understand the anger, though that in and of itself doesn't justify it. I think he should have pulled the gun, and started yelling for them to back off... and I'm pretty sure they would have. After all, he didn't believe they were armed.

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

nutter

J-Luck, unless you can demonstrate that this article is false, shut up on your anti-Wikipedia crap mate. When you vandlised that other article it was corrected within seconds and in general Wikipedia tends not to be bad right.

Anyway, that Goetz guy sounds like a typical gun nut who over reacted. He was a VIGILANTE not some random guy who accidentally found himself in shit. He shot four guys??!??!! Where any of them in the process of turning to run away????

No surprise the NRA gave him $120,000 for shooting those guys. Long live moronic freedoms of stupidity HAZZARR!!!!

__________________
My kind of life

J-Luck

No, becuase I wasn't a member then... now I am lol(takes under 1 min. to become a member) and everything I change from now on is anonymous and stays. SO NO, it ISN'T CRAP, SHUTUP AND AKNOWLEDGE THE FACTS... Anyways, if you could READ, you would have read the part where I said I looked at other news sources and found it to be credible.(btw, an article can be flawed to begin with... lol durrr, besides I made a change in the Jay-Z page last night, but it was actually edifying, it wasn't bull).

Yes, he overreacted... but was he a nut... no... He had been mugged 2 times prior and injured both times... I mean, as a person you get to the point where enough is enough. Again, I think Uke had a good post about this.

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

nutter

So it was revenge was it mate. Great justification if you're a nut case innit.

__________________
My kind of life

gregimotis

It's a good idea for a thread and I'd like to comment on it. Unfortunatley, the thread has already been invaded by the termites.

__________________
.
.
I am Tired. Tired. Tired.

EmptyneSs

well, the article does mention that these guys who were shot were indeed trouble makers, and one of them even raped and beat a pregnant women not long after this event. if they could have such little regard for a pregnant woman, they probobly would have had even less for goetz. but yeah, he did snap when just pulling out the gun would have been enough. but i dont really know if goetz should be to blame. when 4 guys approach you in a subway car, usually nothing good can come of it. goetz was right to fear for his life, who knows what the 4 guys had intended to do. they kinda got what they deserved. he was outnumbered, so he capped em before they could do anything.

nutter

Four guys approaching him is justification to shoot them? No way mate, you're crazy.

__________________
My kind of life

EmptyneSs

they didnt just approach him, they asked him for money in a threatening manner, and it was apparent they were about to do something, so goetz acted fast and hit his would be attackers before they could do anything. if you are sitting in a NY subway, and multiple men walk up to and demand money, i really dont think they have anything good intended for you, so you better think of something fast. sure, anger took over goetz at that point and he snapped, but thats because of the four men. goetz wasnt a nutcase who happened to get on the train that day. he snapped as a result of the fact that he felt he was about to be victimized again while being greatly outnumbered.

J-Luck

Not revenge... but definitly paranoia and anger. Blinded by his emotions.

__________________
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Phillipians 4:13

EmptyneSs

look at your quote j luck, the one by patton. thats exactly what goetz did.

Uke

You have got to be kidding. I don't care what their backgrounds were, having words doesn't justify shooting people. Maybe YOU can identify with that kind of fear that would make you pull your pistol prematurely, but that's you. The guy who had the past priors didn't have a sign hung around his neck that read like a rap sheet. I have been approached by multiple guys bigger than me before, and I let it play out. It was words. Bravado and words. Now if I had pulled out and shot them, I'd be lifting weights and trading cigarette cartons. What was I supposed to tell the judge? "Your Honor I shot them all because my SPIDER SENSE was tingling".

Here's another real story that didn't make the news.

In the early 90's, some out of town guys came into my neighborhood. I knew who they were because they were mostly relatives and friends of a guy I know. These guys liked to flash guns and talk sh!t to anyone that they thought they could get away with doing it to. So, as it happened, another friend of mine ... let's call him Alan .... got into an argument with a local girl who happened to be dating one of these guys. It escalated and she slapped Alan, so he slapped her back. She then threatened to tell the out of town boyfriend about it. Later that night, the out of town boyfriend came around in his Pathfinder, drove up to where Alan was standing, and told Alan, "If I see you later, I'm going to kill you. So if you have a gun now, you'd better kill me now". Then he drove away. Alan then went home, got a gun, and went back to where he was before.

About an hour later, they drove up again. They told Alan to "come over here for a second". As Alan approached, the vehicle, the driver rolled down the window all the way down. Alan approached the window and the driver took a swing at Alan's head. Then the other passengers started fumbling around in the car. So, Alan emptied his whole clip into the truck. Then the truck took off, making it around a corner before crashing into a police car. Two of the three people in the truck died. One held on for a while before dying. When they searched the truck, there were fully automatic guns inside. Had Alan not done what he did he might have been killed. And they swung at him after telling him that they were going to kill him. That was a situation where someone knew that his life was in danger, as these guys has been flashing guns since they came around town.

The end result? Alan will NEVER see freedom again. He's been in prison since 1990. He won't be eligible for parole for 30 more years. Regardless of who tried to assault who first, he was charged with premeditated murder. In 4 years, he will have been incarcerated for 20 years. Alan didn't have any priors. Alan was not a violent guy. Alan wasn't in any gangs.

So before people start getting trigger happy and using the "Kill first, ask questions later" philosophy, you'd better remember Alan and his story. God was on Goetz' side because had any of those kids he shot died, he would have been in the same situation as Alan.

__________________
A solar panel 100 miles by 100 miles (161x161km) in the Mojave Desert (USA) could replace all the coal now burned to generate electricity in the entire U.S.

EmptyneSs

at least Alans alive. he gets 3 meals a day, he can exercise, read books, gain degrees, and produce artwork. thats a lot more than many people on this earth have gotten, and even though prison can be real tough, its better than being dead and many people have made great accomplishments while in prison. id rather go to prison than have a clip emptied into my body anyday.

according to the article, bernhard had been mugged multiple times before this incident, and had been seriously injured in one of them. i think he had sufficient reason to take the action he did. plus, it was 4 on 1. nothing short of a firearm would have saved him, he would have been at the mercy of these guys. plus, if you try to threaten and mug people, you should expect that they are going to try to harm you back if they can. those 4 men were in the wrong, they were probobly too arrogant to think the helpless man they were planning to attack was armed and trained with his weapon.