darrianation

Guys, there has been a lot of threads and posts on which martial art is “BEST” for self-defense?" Or "Is such and such art good for self-defense?"

So, I wanted to start a new thread to see if we could come to any “core” concept on the issue. What I want to know is, what is your definition of self-defense (not the text book legal version but your own belief) and what components should go into a self-defense system or what should you expect to see in the “IDEAL” self-defense system?

What say you?

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

hEmPY

3 Fightin Rulez

LOL

darrianation

Nice linking your own thread.

But I want to see something more in depth with a little more explanation.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

bigred389

I actually found this website: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

to be very comprehensive. The stuff on "which MA to train", legal ramifications, "knifefighting," etc. are all covered solidly.

darrianation

Give us a brief run down on what should be taught in a SD class or what the concepts should be.

I realize this may leave some important things out but if enough folks list their ideas maybe we can piece together a fairly accurate template.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

hEmPY

Muay Thai for kicks
Boxin for punches
Judo for throws
BJJ for ground game


but Im sure if you gonna follow dat rulez (link above) any style could be effective, even aikido

LOL

Thai Bri

You know you have a lot to learn when the term "self defence" automatically makes you think of fighting systems. If you're fighting, then your self defence hasn't worked!

hEmPY

lol *

darrianation

I have always said, first, the street fight dictates what you train and how you train, it’s not the other way around. Can we think of (or list) what the different components of a street fight are? Perhaps I can start it off.

First thing to know about self-defense is there is no perfect model it doesn’t always happen the same way. In a street fight anything goes and anything can happen. Luck happens and not just to the good guy, Murphy ’s Law happens and not just to the bad guy. However, certainly hard training can reduce the bad effects and increase the good ones, but it will not eliminate them all together.

In a street fight we will have to be able to operate under the conditions of uncertainty. Next, the environment will be an unstable one, for instance---multiple possibilities, variable unknowns, and rapidly changing conditions or in other words the probabilities are conditional and capable of sudden dynamic shifts.

Agree? Disagree?

What other properties do we need to be concerned about?

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

darrianation

Very good point Bri!

As I am sure you agree (Geoff Thompson said it) "Most fights are won before the fight" although I think he was refering to the mental spects, fence, verbal misdirection, etc. However, it would certainly apply to other measures to keep you out of a fight in the first place.

Bri, I know you know you shit...and I would certainly yield to your knowledge on many subjects, maybe you can expound a little on the subject.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

darrianation

This also brings up another point. In my puny brain, with halftimers, I define self-defense as the violence component to an overall self-protection program. I know I'm getting off the reservation on this but I think prevention, medicine (first aide), outdoor skills, food, water, and medical supply storage (for disaster preparedness) is all part of the self-protection program.

__________________
The law of tyranny:

1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.


Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!

treelizard

1. Pre-fight. This should include awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape strategies, and also understanding what assault is, what street crimes are common in your area, what they look like, who the assailants usu. are, what the most common time of day is, what BGs are looking for ("white bread"), how to avoid looking like a target, etc. Ideally this would include information on child lures and the 101 on domestic violence and acquaintance rape. Also basic home awareness and defensive concepts. Information on fear/overcoming fear, adrenaline, or shell/core shunt, or whatever you want to call it. When to fight, when not to fight, legal issues that may come up, etc.

2. Some kind of conditioning so that you will be able to stay IN the fight if you get in one. Punches, kicks, knees, elbows, etc. can be practiced here and you can throw in some defensive tactics.

3. Weapons. Weapons of opportunity.

4. Groundwork.

5. Multiple opponents.

6. You should get to work up to fighting multiple opponents with weapons while standing and on the ground going full force without padding. (Training weapons are okay.)

Leverage, joint manipulation, timing, distance, etc. should be included along the way.

Did I miss anything?]

Oh yeah... post-fight. how to deal.

__________________
http://www.dirttime.org

http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

hEmPY

sparring is a perfect model. if ur bad at sparrin, it may not mean that the opponent is too good. It may mean that ur not good enough too.
A good fighter is speed or power. There're no numba 3.
There're tactics, but you'll have to be or speed or power to use it as tactics.

Now the power sparring, of the arts I mentioned above is to get good innit without moving much.

In boxin, u should know jab well and right power punch (cross, hook, or uppercut, anythin u like), or power combos (but power combos takes alot of time to master, so theres not really much time to spend just on boxin as we should learn self defence at all ranges). So the goal here is to overplay the opponent usin jab and right power punch. If u can do it, ur boxin power sparrin is done.

In Muay Thai power sparrin is like boxin, but u have to overplay the opp w/ kicks. I allow here 2 kicks: low kick and straight kick (u can learn more, but again time is money). If u can do it, then u've passed.

Judo. Here I'd say ur passed if u mastered few throwz and can use it in sparrin and win.

BJJ. At ground game u cant devide it at speed and power. The whole proccess is speed and power. I'd say u passed it if u can get out of position like where the guy is sittin on you tryin to finish it, or got yo head for knees or elbowz etc. And if u can get out of locks and chokes to the position where ur on the top or bottom.

Speed sparrin.
At both Boxin and Muay Thai it is when u just fly around the opp and throwin strikes and win. Then ur passed.

At Judo is just to try not to get caught (It is forbidden by judo rules to evade; but this is not for sport it is for self defence), then ur passed.

datz tha 3 rulez at more extended understandin

yap

theres could be many opponents, someone could get knife or a gun, u could be attacked from behind to the head, your on tha ground.

but derz only way out

keep fightin

LOL

SamuraiGuy

Parts of this thread are good....

Parts of this thread make my brain bleed..... urghhh....

I think you need to look at it like two seperate things.

Self Protection
and
Self Defense.

Darrianation somewhat alluded to this already. Self defense being the actual physical confrontation/fight, and self protection being everything leading up to, during and after. Self Defense is just one part of the self protection spectrum.

So then are we looking for the ideal self defense system, or the ideal self protection system.

Defense is simply fighting techniques, and adapting to the changes which happen in the actual combat. Protection is from when you step out of the door (or not even in some cases) to when you lock the door at night I would imagine. Depends on how paranoid you are I guess.

__________________
"a few User CP's that are pretty significant ones(like a BoarSpear or SamuraiGuy one). " - GracieHunter

I choke people, I dont poke people. -- Me

Were you born to resist or be abused? I swear I'll never give in, I refuse. -- Foo Fighters

I want a girl that spends more time on her back than Royce Gracie.

I'll knee you in the face like your name was Josh Koschek -- Me

bigred389

A brief rundown on the things the site creator covers:

Avoidance/Awareness. Look for things that don't "feel" right. If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not. Look around you, measure things out. If somebody is approaching you, make them maintain their distance if you're not in a public(and of course, populated) area. Let them know you're being cautious, and that you know what they "might" be planning to do.

Know the criminal mind-relating back to avoidance. Criminals are get rich quick personalities. They don't want to waste time and energy on a guy who might be a machete wielding type(ie Boarspear). If you're "flashing the cash" you're setting yourself up to be a target.

Understand the different types of conflicts. There's REAL combat, assault/self-defense, "fights", etc. In real combat, we're talking war. That doesn't apply to us. In "fights," you shouldn't even be there. Somebody spilling water on your girlfriend doesn't deserve to get beat up OR die. An apology is sufficient, keep the inner a-hole pinned for now. If you DO end up in a fight where the other person is looking for it and will simply not let you walk away, then prepare for the fight...not a ring. Who knows what he'll bring to the table...and whether or not it'll escalate into an assault/SD situation.

TRUE Assault/self-defense is different. You get somebody who literally wants to KILL you. I have read "On Killing" and the site creator recommended it as well...I believe it's essential for anybody hoping to prepare for this situation where somebody literally wants to kill/maim you. You need to condition yourself to survive a situation where the natural evolutionary instinct is to submit/surrender and seek mercy.
And even worse, it's a situation where often the attacker does not give a damn. This is why I really like that knife vs gun video posted on another thread. The knifer doesn't care if you get that gun out and pump two in the shoulder. He is DETERMINED to kill you. Best option is to run. But run intelligently, don't trap yourself, seek places with other people who can help you. If you cannot run, know how to parry/evade THEN run. If even that's not a feasible option...then, better hope you're armed.

When selecting a system, ask, "Is this going to take the guy down in X moves?"
Remember, there may be more than one opponent, so a system that relies on a sequence of 15 deadly kicks is probably not going to work out so well.
Even if there's only one, you want your hits to HURT him, not make him angry.

Know HOW your moves work, and what it takes for them to work. Even before talking about dynamic stuff like timing/movement, you better be able to KO a static opponent with a single shot. If you can't do that, a dynamic opponent is gonna be even harder.

Finally, legal ramifications, especially for the knife fighters. Assault with a lethal weapon is a crime. Know the laws where you live, know when you can use your tools for self defense, and when you'll end up getting hammered by the law. Knives are viewed as thuggish weapons by juries, so the saying "better tried by twelve than carried by six" is more like "better to go to jail than die," because if it's a "questionable" situation where you will end up in court, the odds are against you.
Reference a NYC stabbing of a bouncer by a student of Atienza kali. He claimed a bouncer was aggressively choking his friend and he feared for his life. All reasonable, OK. But then he pulled his KNIFE and stabbed the guy in the leg.
To us that sounds almost reasonable...a leg shot is not what most see as intent to kill. However, it pierced a major artery and the bouncer bled out and died. That student(who btw had a steady day job as a network administrator and more or less wholesome as far as character) ended up in jail.
Again, know what you can and cannot do, and apply that to your training.