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Old 07-26-2006, 04:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Let's Discuss---What if!

Read the following story from the Baltimore newspaper. 3 inmates jump and stab a correctional officer to death. Is there anything we as martial artist do and train for that could have helped this C/O?



3 prison inmates kill correctional officer
Jessup facility was on lockdown because of rumors of a planned assault
By Greg Garland
Sun Reporter
Originally published July 26, 2006, 4:16 PM EDT
A 41-year-old correctional officer was stabbed to death at a maximum security prison in Jessup last night after three inmates who jammed the locks to their cell doors got out and attacked him, Maryland prison officials said today.

Division of Correction Commissioner Frank C. Sizer Jr. said the prison had been on lockdown since the weekend -- meaning prisoners were confined mostly to their cells -- because administrators had heard rumors that inmates were planning to assault and try to kill an officer.





"We had received information that inmates might be up to something against officers," Sizer said.

The slain prison guard, David McGuinn, had been working for the prison system for the past two years, according to Sizer. He is the second correctional officer to be killed in the line of duty in Maryland this year.

McGuinn was stabbed in the neck and back about 10 p.m. and died a little over an hour later at Baltimore Washington Medical Center, Sizer said.

The officer's stabbing at the Maryland House of Correction follows a rash of violence at the prison, which houses 1,100 inmates. Two officers were stabbed and seriously injured in March, and three inmates have been killed since May -- including a popular Sunni Muslim inmate leader stabbed to death two weeks ago.

Authorities say they have no information that the recent rash of violence is connected or whether it is gang-related.

Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. said McGuinn's death "reminds you of how dangerous that job is."

"We have people who could make far more money in less dangerous jobs. Our thought and prayers go to the family and our thanks go to the people who put on that uniform every day," Ehrlich said.

Union officials said the state's prison system is in crisis and called for Ehrlich's administration to take action.

"The dangerous and vicious environment in our prisons, particularly at the House, needs to be the governor's priority," said Robert Stephens, acting director of the Maryland Correctional Employees Association.

"No more empty talk. No more tragedies. We need action," Stephens said.

He said that correctional officers understand that their job holds risks "but we cannot send them to work with inmates just laying in wait to exploit an already volatile situation and attack."

Stephens repeated the MCEA's calls for Ehrlich to replace Sizer and Public Safety Department Secretary Mary Ann Saar.

Ron Bailey, executive director of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Council 92, said McGuinn's killing is a shocking indictment of how the prison system is being run.

He said he was stunned when Sizer related that administrators had advance knowledge of possible plans by inmates to attack an officer, and that three had managed to jam their cell locks and get out to attack him.

"I was floored," Bailey said. "I was speechless."

Sizer appointed a new warden, Wendell M. "Pete" France, on Monday and gave him broad authority to make whatever changes he feels are needed to tighten security.

After the fatal attack on McGuinn, officials temporarily transferred security teams from other institutions to assist.

However, the correctional officers' union said those measures may not be enough. They note that despite the violence, the House of Correction has 47 unfilled positions.

"Forty-seven is a lot of vacancies, especially when you have a facility that's antiquated," said Bailey.

Maryland's prisons are understaffed, morale is low and the entire system is in crisis, Bailey said.

"We're saddened and furious by the death of Officer McGuinn," Bailey said. "We're furious because this is another of these situations where we say, 'I told you so.'"

Maj. Priscilla Doggett, a corrections division spokeswoman, said the prison system is moving to fill vacant positions as quickly as possible.

France ran the Maryland Reception, Diagnostic and Classification Center in Baltimore, where inmates entering the system are processed and assigned to a prison. He has had a long career in law enforcement, including serving as a commander and chief of detectives for the Baltimore Police Department in the late 1990s.
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Old 07-26-2006, 07:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball
Read the following story from the Baltimore newspaper. 3 inmates jump and stab a correctional officer to death. Is there anything we as martial artist do and train for that could have helped this C/O?
Most martial artists are taught to avoid being in situations where the chance of being attacked by multiple attackers with knives. Sadly, CO's have to face this possiblity every working day.

Three against one, with the three armed with knives and the lone defender unarmed is not the best of odds for the defender. Short of being one of the original Shaolin monks, I really don't know what David McGuinn could have done. How many martial arts schools out there actively practice three on one knife SD, where the "attackers" are actually trying to mark you?
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Old 07-26-2006, 10:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Even with schools that do offer training for it, it's hard to say if it could have helped without actually knowing the exact circumstances.
And I'm not a fan of Monday morning QBing as it is.

There's the simple possibility he was immediately placed in a situation where the attackers already brought their weight/numbers to bear on him.

It's tough...we haven't been there, and we don't even know the layout, circumstances, etc. I don't think we should judge.
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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This has the potential to be an interesting discussion without anybody being judgemental.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Were there things that this CO could have done to save his life? Absolutley! Were there things his facility could have done to save his life? Absolutely! The problem is that neither one likely took the necessary steps. I am a certified law enforcement trainer and I can tell you that there are only a handful of officers in each department who actually take the necessary steps to learn how to keep themselves safe. Here is the problem, police officers and correction officers know without a doubt that their work could place them in a potentially violent and even lethal situations but few actually accept the fact. Instead they choose to live in denial and think that nothing like that will ever happen to them. To top that off the departments they work for tend to live in the same denial and they actually refuse to pay for their officers to get any kind of physical or mental training. The officers then assume that if it's not important enough for the department to pay for it then it must not be important enough to pay for it out of their own pocket. You would be surprised to know how many police departments and correctional facilities there are around this country that receive no personal safety training of any kind.

An example: I recently received an e-mail from a female correctional officer in my state. She told me that her facility would not provide them with any type of training but suggested that they get online and see if they can learn anything by reading message boards, articles, etc. She wanted to know if I could send her any type of training advice through e-mail. Now, this is obviously one person who has eliminated the denial and wants to actually get trained but her facility won't provide it. To say it's a sad thing is an understatement.

Now, as far as actually being able to defend against that type of attack. It can be done. It won't be pretty and there are no guarantees that a person wouldn't get injured or still die. However, some knowledge is better than none. Although, the key to dealing with such a situation is the development of the mind-set. Mind-set is way more important than physical skills in such situations. The intended victim must come to terms that in such a situation the only way he/she will likley survive is to have to take another's life. To some that can be worse than dying.


Steve Zorn, ICPS
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Old 07-27-2006, 12:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Steve thanks for contributing to this very relevant conversation. I agree with you; it all starts with your mind set. If you think you have a chance then you do, if you think you are doomed--then you are.
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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While mindset and a will to survive is encouraging, the odds in that situation are still very slim especially if he was caught off guard which I venture would be the case. I am more concerned how the lockdown procedure failed in terms of the cell locking indicators. How did 3 cells get jammed and went unnoticed at the switch board?
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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To me it sounds like he was an unpopular guard who was maybe "Setup". The prison was on lockdown because the murder plot had leaked!! Why would any C/O be alone if there was a known plot to take out a C/O?
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Old 07-27-2006, 10:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If the man had proper training, the "Hostage roll" would have worked perfectly in that situation.

Hostage roll- The counter to group attacks in hand to hand and even gun combat.

If one tried to strike, disarm him BUT don't pick up the knife. It's only a distraction. You are the weapon that you must use. If he was fast enough and trained properly, he could have put the man in a rear choke and twisting his wrist behind his back, holding him between himself and the other two.

From this position, it leaves hardly any openings for knives to hit, allowing him the ability to whip out and strike while still holding the man as a living shield. Once a man has been downed after striking, he very well could have thrown the held 'hostage' into the remaining man at a forced push causing a few second lapse. Then he could do one of two things:

1. Find a way out and RUN.

or
2. Pick up the knife that was disarmed from earlier and take advantage of their confused status.

Just a thing I would have done.... Then again I'm a little more daring.
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by us-navy-seal
If the man had proper training, the "Hostage roll" would have worked perfectly in that situation.

Hostage roll- The counter to group attacks in hand to hand and even gun combat.

If one tried to strike, disarm him BUT don't pick up the knife. It's only a distraction. You are the weapon that you must use. If he was fast enough and trained properly, he could have put the man in a rear choke and twisting his wrist behind his back, holding him between himself and the other two.

From this position, it leaves hardly any openings for knives to hit, allowing him the ability to whip out and strike while still holding the man as a living shield. Once a man has been downed after striking, he very well could have thrown the held 'hostage' into the remaining man at a forced push causing a few second lapse. Then he could do one of two things:

1. Find a way out and RUN.

or
2. Pick up the knife that was disarmed from earlier and take advantage of their confused status.

Just a thing I would have done.... Then again I'm a little more daring.
That's an interesting analysis but you do realize that the C/O was shanked in the Back? And the neck? Is your theory realistic?
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardball
That's an interesting analysis but you do realize that the C/O was shanked in the Back? And the neck? Is your theory realistic?
I missed that part reading it the first time.

But it brings up a good point...all the fighting ability in the world means diddly squat if you don't see the knife coming. And we should also consider that the people in those prisons are among the nastiest, most devious sonsabitches the world has ever seen.
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Old 07-28-2006, 03:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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True, but I was going from a standard perspective. If I looked it over thouroughly (And wasn't tired) I'd be able to piece together some way.

Even if you are hit with a knife once, (Didn't see where he was hit) if you are alive and in a situation like that, you do whatever the hell you can to get out of there.
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Old 07-28-2006, 04:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Knowing how to kick may have saved his life or either some samauri training ( intensive knife and sword work)
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:24 AM   #14 (permalink)
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In the case of an attack from behind, nothing could have really saved him. Anyone could be in that position and still die, including myself. However, I never turn my back to a side that I know would possibly have threats.
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Give me any CQC, Combatives, RBSD, or FMA guy...walking the other direction or talking to me up front, and if the jump is clean enough, or the set-up is good enough...nobody's getting away unscathed from a suprise shanking if it's executed the right way. Sorry.

He should've had a slash and thrust proof outfit on...the manufacturers almost always seem to forget the neck...seems stupid, huh.
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