Ambushes: From physical to legal

Tom Yum · 07-28-2006, 01:02 PM

Hey guys,

We've talked quite a bit about the physical/mental preparedness when encountering an ambush.

Anything about the legal?

The reason why I ask is that I think there's a slightly higher chance, I'm going to be the target of an ambush or something in that nature due to some really weird circumstances involving someone I thought I knew...

**Hardball** · 07-28-2006, 01:31 PM

When I was in the Army they said-----Ambush, Attack.

Again, Ambush Attack. Hope that helps.

Tom Yum · 07-28-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardball

When I was in the Army they said-----Ambush, Attack.

Again, Ambush Attack. Hope that helps.

Sort of.

Can you give a further explanation?

bigred389 · 07-28-2006, 02:25 PM

Legal preparation? Check your local self-defense laws. Only way to be absolutely sure.

But for a bottom line:
1)Proportional force to the threat
No lethal force until you perceive a lethal force threat...kinda grey, as a 120lb woman can argue a 300lb male attacker constitutes a lethal force threat.

2)Immediate threat
You have to be threatened at the time you act in self defense. So no you can't kick his ass, then walk to your car, get a wrench, and bash his head in to finish the job.

There's also an escalation of force thing involved usually, but if you're ambushed that's not going to be an issue. But the above guidelines are pretty applicable across the board. Some states are more relaxed though, as in you can legally shoot someone stealing your car or what not.

**Hardball** · 07-28-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Sort of.

Can you give a further explanation?

Go on the offensive. Be proactive. You seem to have advanced knowledge of what's comming down the pike.

Garland · 07-28-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred389

Legal preparation? Check your local self-defense laws. Only way to be absolutely sure.

But for a bottom line:
1)Proportional force to the threat
No lethal force until you perceive a lethal force threat...kinda grey, as a 120lb woman can argue a 300lb male attacker constitutes a lethal force threat.

2)Immediate threat
You have to be threatened at the time you act in self defense. So no you can't kick his ass, then walk to your car, get a wrench, and bash his head in to finish the job.

There's also an escalation of force thing involved usually, but if you're ambushed that's not going to be an issue. But the above guidelines are pretty applicable across the board. Some states are more relaxed though, as in you can legally shoot someone stealing your car or what not.

that reminds me of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oFQO...oondocks%20gun

J-Luck · 08-02-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred389

Legal preparation? Check your local self-defense laws. Only way to be absolutely sure.

But for a bottom line:
1)Proportional force to the threat
No lethal force until you perceive a lethal force threat...kinda grey, as a 120lb woman can argue a 300lb male attacker constitutes a lethal force threat.

2)Immediate threat
You have to be threatened at the time you act in self defense. So no you can't kick his ass, then walk to your car, get a wrench, and bash his head in to finish the job.

There's also an escalation of force thing involved usually, but if you're ambushed that's not going to be an issue. But the above guidelines are pretty applicable across the board. Some states are more relaxed though, as in you can legally shoot someone stealing your car or what not.

This is all true, but you have to put it in context. The law deals with the reasonable person... or something to that effect. The question is asked, how would a reasonable person feel, and act in an identical situation. A 120 pound women can use lethal force on a 150 man in most judges and juries eyes because women are not only percieved weaker(not saying this is always correct) but almost defenseless.

The way this would apply to Tom is that if he is ambushed... everything must be taken into context. How big/tall are you Tom? How big/tall do you think the people will be? How deep is their hatred for you, and how much force do you assume or how much force have they communicated either directly or indirectly that they would intend on sending your way. All of these are factors. If 3 250+ pound guys jump 200 pound Tom on his morning jog when he's got headphones on and barely sees it coming, it's reasonable to assume that a court will allow him some slack to deal out SERIOUS bodily harm(nature of the surprise attack, seriousness of percieved threat, size disadvantage, number disadvantage). Though, if he's in a parking lot and he has all the time in the world to escape, or de-escilate the situation, then he may be in some trouble if he stays and kills all of the people involved.

Also, if something did go down, do you plan on waiting for the cops? There are plenty of situations that the cops never know who did it. I've been in and seen situations where no one stuck around to see how much trouble they'd get into.

But if you do stick around, I'm speaking from experience Tom. I have a few friends who got caught or did stick around,some of which got locked up, some of which were aquitted, or didn't even have any charges pressed on them to begin with.

Another good thing to do is announce intent. It sounds a little stupid and weird, but my friend's lawyer told him before if he had just simply said "I don't want to fight you but you're making me feel threatened and I will defend myself if you continue". Though it's a weird way of doing things, if they approach you and you see it coming, try it. If they are already bent on hurting you, why not add to your legal protection. ESPECIALLY if a witness sees you say you didn't want to fight, but were feeling threatened.

szorn · 08-03-2006, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Hey guys,

We've talked quite a bit about the physical/mental preparedness when encountering an ambush.

Anything about the legal?

The reason why I ask is that I think there's a slightly higher chance, I'm going to be the target of an ambush or something in that nature due to some really weird circumstances involving someone I thought I knew...

If you are ambushed most states allow you to use the amount of force that is necessary to safely escape the situation. Check the laws in your state. Most state laws can now be found online. If the laws are sketchy, check with a lawyer or your local police department. However, as was mentioned if you have any advanced awareness of the potential attack then it's not an ambush. An ambush is a sudden and unexpected assault. In any case, if you can prove that you didn't have any other choice but to use physical force to escape the situation you will likely be OK. In order to successfully prove this in court you must demonstrate some knowledge of the laws as well as show an understanding of the reasonable person standard. It's also a good idea to know when lethal force is justified. Basically, you just apply the AOJ concept (ability, opportunity, and jeopardy). A= Did the assailant have the ability to severely injure or kill you? In other words was he big or strong? Did he have a weapon? Was there more than one assailant? O= Did the assailant have the opportunity to severely injure or kill you? In other words was he close enough to attack? If he had a weapon, is he in range to use that weapon? Lastly, J= Did the assailant demonstrate an intent to cause you severe injury or death? Did you make a threat on your life? Did he make a physical gesture of killing you?

If you can answer yes to all of those questions than physical force is completely justified.

On a side note: I always tell my students that they should never let their fear of the law keep them from saving their own life or the life of a loved one. In other words if they fear for their life they should do whatever is necessary to safely escape the situation. While it is true that in some cases the laws have been turned on the intended victims. However, as the old saying goes "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". In other words I would prefer to be alive and face the consequences.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

thescottishdude · 08-03-2006, 04:32 AM

A tip from the SAS - In any terrorist attack or ambush you must make your escaoe during the initial seconds of the attack while the attackers are confused and trying to bring the situation under control. It is much easier then. if you freeze (becuase you'll obviously be more surprised then they are) the terrorists will bring the situation under control and you will be captured. to escape again you'll need to takle them head on, guns and all.

Paco · 08-03-2006, 03:24 PM

I've gone over the same thing in a couple of other posts, but I'll say it again: judges don't like the word 'ambush'. It means preparation, preparation is close to premeditation and premeditation is one of the elements of murder.

Paco · 08-03-2006, 03:25 PM

Of course, you can go balls out in the street, have a pencil-neck prosecutor throw the book at you, then do time and then worry about REAL ambushes (like when you go to the shower, for instance).

yoshinkan · 08-07-2006, 05:02 AM

Sometimes, to get out of an ambush, you need to do things more serious (if people who ambush are dtermined).

But I don't advise it.

If you do that, be sure:

1. To bring them in a place with no witnesses (not advised if you don't have experience and a good team). Anyone who can recognize you, and do what you got to do.

2. To not let any trace, marks on these people bodies that can bring you directly into jail (very difficult to practice, need experience).

People are very funny, because they ambush you, try to do anything against you, but when you decide to be serious and stop them for good, I assure you that most of them will go and cry in front of policemen, and contact their lawyers faster than you can think.

My small brother didn't know these two, and he found himself in jail.

Mike's advices are appropried for those situations.

**Hardball** · 08-09-2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paco

I've gone over the same thing in a couple of other posts, but I'll say it again: judges don't like the word 'ambush'. It means preparation, preparation is close to premeditation and premeditation is one of the elements of murder.

Try using the word "Hasty Ambush" or "Counter Ambush"

Paco · 08-09-2006, 11:30 AM

If I was your lawyer, I would never let you use that word. Try, for instance; "I was in terrible fear for my safety and could not safely return home, my fear was such that I tried to hide... and that's when the confrontation happened, Your Honor." Of course, this only works if your "fear" is a reasonable one and if the guy wasn't blown to bits with a shotgun or something like that. Ambush sounds reasonable to another martial artist, but NOT to a judge. that's like saying: "Oh, I didn't intend to hurt him that bad, cuz if I had I would've killed him" (wrong!) OR ""the cop is lying, there were no drugs in the car, i had them on me" OR " I stopped beating my wife a long time ago" etc.

**Hardball** · 08-09-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paco

If I was your lawyer, I would never let you use that word. Try, for instance; "I was in terrible fear for my safety and could not safely return home, my fear was such that I tried to hide... and that's when the confrontation happened, Your Honor." Of course, this only works if your "fear" is a reasonable one and if the guy wasn't blown to bits with a shotgun or something like that. Ambush sounds reasonable to another martial artist, but NOT to a judge. that's like saying: "Oh, I didn't intend to hurt him that bad, cuz if I had I would've killed him" (wrong!) OR ""the cop is lying, there were no drugs in the car, i had them on me" OR " I stopped beating my wife a long time ago" etc.

Thanks, the world can use more good Attorneys.

07-28-2006, 01:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,220 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ambushes: From physical to legal Hey guys, We've talked quite a bit about the physical/mental preparedness when encountering an ambush. Anything about the legal? The reason why I ask is that I think there's a slightly higher chance, I'm going to be the target of an ambush or something in that nature due to some really weird circumstances involving someone I thought I knew... __________________ The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. Slow is fast; fast is slow. Love it, leave it or fix it.

07-28-2006, 01:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Hardball Premiere Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,325 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	When I was in the Army they said-----Ambush, Attack. Again, Ambush Attack. Hope that helps. __________________ The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 45,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

08-03-2006, 04:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
thescottishdude Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 84 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	A tip from the SAS - In any terrorist attack or ambush you must make your escaoe during the initial seconds of the attack while the attackers are confused and trying to bring the situation under control. It is much easier then. if you freeze (becuase you'll obviously be more surprised then they are) the terrorists will bring the situation under control and you will be captured. to escape again you'll need to takle them head on, guns and all. __________________ Learn Martial Arts Online - Locate People USA / UK - Bestman Speech

08-07-2006, 05:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
yoshinkan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 27 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sometimes, to get out of an ambush, you need to do things more serious (if people who ambush are dtermined). But I don't advise it. If you do that, be sure: 1. To bring them in a place with no witnesses (not advised if you don't have experience and a good team). Anyone who can recognize you, and do what you got to do. 2. To not let any trace, marks on these people bodies that can bring you directly into jail (very difficult to practice, need experience). People are very funny, because they ambush you, try to do anything against you, but when you decide to be serious and stop them for good, I assure you that most of them will go and cry in front of policemen, and contact their lawyers faster than you can think. My small brother didn't know these two, and he found himself in jail. Mike's advices are appropried for those situations. __________________ Visit My Self Defense Blog .

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07-28-2006, 02:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
bigred389 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 569 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Legal preparation? Check your local self-defense laws. Only way to be absolutely sure. But for a bottom line: 1)Proportional force to the threat No lethal force until you perceive a lethal force threat...kinda grey, as a 120lb woman can argue a 300lb male attacker constitutes a lethal force threat. 2)Immediate threat You have to be threatened at the time you act in self defense. So no you can't kick his ass, then walk to your car, get a wrench, and bash his head in to finish the job. There's also an escalation of force thing involved usually, but if you're ambushed that's not going to be an issue. But the above guidelines are pretty applicable across the board. Some states are more relaxed though, as in you can legally shoot someone stealing your car or what not.

08-03-2006, 03:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
Paco Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 169 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've gone over the same thing in a couple of other posts, but I'll say it again: judges don't like the word 'ambush'. It means preparation, preparation is close to premeditation and premeditation is one of the elements of murder.

08-03-2006, 03:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
Paco Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 169 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Of course, you can go balls out in the street, have a pencil-neck prosecutor throw the book at you, then do time and then worry about REAL ambushes (like when you go to the shower, for instance).

08-09-2006, 11:30 AM	#14 (permalink)
Paco Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 169 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	If I was your lawyer, I would never let you use that word. Try, for instance; "I was in terrible fear for my safety and could not safely return home, my fear was such that I tried to hide... and that's when the confrontation happened, Your Honor." Of course, this only works if your "fear" is a reasonable one and if the guy wasn't blown to bits with a shotgun or something like that. Ambush sounds reasonable to another martial artist, but NOT to a judge. that's like saying: "Oh, I didn't intend to hurt him that bad, cuz if I had I would've killed him" (wrong!) OR ""the cop is lying, there were no drugs in the car, i had them on me" OR " I stopped beating my wife a long time ago" etc.

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