Hardball

I like the way Excessive force say's, If you gonna use force make it Excessive force. LOL

But seriously though, local, state and Federal laws will penalize you if you "go too far" How far is too far? What techniques or scenarios are protected by the law? If you are jumped by 3 drug crazed thugs, can you break one of their necks with that technique that you learned in Judo? I see it all the time, martial artist hurting someone in self defense situations. Is it really survival of the fittest? Is it kill or be killed? What are your duties as a martial artist? How will you be treated by the first responding police? The courts? Anyone ever think about this? Does anyone really care?

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The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 44,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

eXcessiveForce

Many people only think of the criminal but there is also the civil to worry about.

Dead people make lousy witnesses and really bad plantiffs. So there is a line where you must decide how much force you are prepared to use. Often you are far better off killing them than maiming them for life.

Choked to death, or killed by a blow to the head also reads better than filleted by knife wielding assailent. (sorry knife guys)

Things I believe are

If you must use force you need to follow certain rules to avoid legal hassels.

1. Set the stage ( Hey why did you hit me?) said allowed before you start beating someone to a pulp. People will remember the person hitting you even if they didn't see it, or worse even if a punch wasn't even thrown.

2. Visible marks sway juries. So a chop to the neck that kills someone is better than beating someones face in till they die. Savageness is simply not tolerated well in america.

3. If you use a weapon, they better have a weapon, superior numbers, or a huge difference in size.

4. You never know what happened. This guy attacked me, he just lunged at me and I tried to stop him by punching him at it hit him right in the throat. Then he just fell down.

5. You were just trying to get back home. The whole time you were just trying to get away. Even when you reloaded your 9mm and empty the clip into the guy for the second time.

6. You were afraid, you are not a stone killer, you are a happy little rabbit in a field attacked by a wolf, and your only defense was to gnaw his head off.

Perception perception perception.

Also after an altercation bellowing like an ogre is a good way to get locked up for a long time. People remember celebration and it can take on a blood thristiness if you aren't careful.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Hardball

That was a better response than I ever expected.

__________________
The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 44,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

eXcessiveForce

I'm surprised more people haven't weighed in on this

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

whitebelt

Probably because of the forumn it is in.

eXcessiveForce

I guess so, 40 views and no takers.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

grappler-jordan

That was better then I could've said it, so I will sit here and twiddle my thumbs some more...

bigred389

1) How far is too far?

When the threat to your person has ended, that's too far. If the guy is clearly "done" you cannot continue to attack.

2) What techniques or scenarios are protected by the law?

From a practical sense, only self-defense. In some states, it includes property.
I can't emphasize this enough: KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS!
Moving from say...Virginia or Texas to New York City is going to be a HUGE shock.

3) If you are jumped by 3 drug crazed thugs, can you break one of their necks with that technique that you learned in Judo?

Yes, if your life is in danger. It's pointless to divide up "techniques." Lethal force is lethal force, whether it's from judo, kali, or your CCW. If you use lethal force, you better make sure your local laws will back you up.

4) What are your duties as a martial artist?

From a legal standpoint, the same as any ARMED citizen. Taking martial arts was you making a decision to "arm" yourself...with something other than a gun.

5) How will you be treated by the first responding police?

Depends on a lot of things. Neighborhood. Your race. Attacker's race. Witness reactions. Officer's mood that day.
Safest bet is to cooperate instantly with all police commands. You might spend a night in jail. If so you don't want the cops do think you're an obnoxious punk.

6) The courts?

See above. Add the judge/jury to list of random factors. Get a good lawyer. Make sure you didn't do anything that would look "bad" during the event...although by this point it's of course too late to "fix" anything. If you lied and are shown to be wrong, for example, that looks bad.

7) Anyone ever think about this? Does anyone really care?

Yes, I do. Being successful applying techniques means crap if you go to jail as a result.

eXcessiveForce

If arrested, don't talk to the police, at this point they are not your friends. ask for your lawyer and then do not talk until he shows up and tells you what you can say.

Being helpful gets lots of people locked up.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

bigred389

I'd say in depends. If you're a "favored species" by the local law system, you may get out of a night in jail by cooperating. I've seen it happen.

Of course, it IS a risk.
And not everybody's smarter than the best lawyer they can afford(ie intelligent and poor).

szorn

This is essentially the same thing I posted under the "Ambushes" thread but thought I would carry over to here.

Most states allow you to use the amount of force that is necessary to safely escape the situation. Check the laws in your state. Most state laws can now be found online. If the laws are sketchy, check with a lawyer or your local police department. The question becomes exactly how much force do you need to use in order to successfully escape this particular situation? Honestly, only the intended victim can know that for sure and it will be based on the totality of circumstances. Example: if I strike the assailant once and he he turns to run away, obviously I can not chase him down to continue hitting him. At the point the assailant stops his assault to run he has ceased his attack. If we continue to chase him we have now become the attacker and can easily find ourselves being taken to jail. However, if we strike the assailant and it has no effect we may be forced to continue striking until the threat ceases or until we get a clear path of escape. In any case, if you can prove that you didn't have any other choice but to use physical force to escape the situation you will likely be OK. In order to successfully prove this in court you must demonstrate some knowledge of the laws as well as show an understanding of the reasonable person standard. It's also a good idea to know when lethal force is justified. Basically, you just apply the AOJ concept (ability, opportunity, and jeopardy). A= Did the assailant have the ability to severely injure or kill you? In other words was he big or strong? Did he have a weapon? Was there more than one assailant? O= Did the assailant have the opportunity to severely injure or kill you? In other words was he close enough to attack? If he had a weapon, is he in range to use that weapon? Lastly, J= Did the assailant demonstrate an intent to cause you severe injury or death? Did you make a threat on your life? Did he make a physical gesture of killing you?

If you can answer yes to all of those questions than physical force is completely justified.

On a side note: I always tell my students that they should never let their fear of the law keep them from saving their own life or the life of a loved one. In other words if they fear for their life they should do whatever is necessary to safely escape the situation. While it is true that in some cases the laws have been turned on the intended victims. However, as the old saying goes "better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". In other words I would prefer to be alive and face the consequences.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

Garland

Ahem...if you have to, or coincidentilly end up killing the ****...I have a song for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsfiU...&search=snatch

[Verse 1]
Let`s talk about dead body disposal
My proposal take the corpse to the bathtub
And drain the blood out of the bastard
Strip ya self new first so you don`t get blood on ya new shirt
And cut the fuckin` corpse up like a butcher to meat kid
And put the pieces inside trash bags
So she`ll be wreaking like a fags ass
With flesh covered in leeches
And throw the bags away
In various trash bins in different areas
This shit`s hilarious
Nobody notices some asshole taking out the garbage
Who would know it`s a carcass?
Even if they were focusing `cause the plastic bag is dark kid
And even the nosy bitch wouldn`t open it, it make no sense
And if you do it just before a trash pick up
The bodies hauled away before it decays and stinks up
It won`t be noticed but literally turns up other shit
And ya bag is in the middle buried right under it
Especially if you double-bagged it
Ya victim`ll stay a faggot in fragments forever stagnet

[Chorus]
Dead Body Disposal
For those that don`t know what to do after ya foes are killed
Shit could get messy when the blood flow spills
You never know when you might need to know skills
In body disposal it`s no frills
Dead Body Disposal
Are you interested in hearing my proposal?

[Verse 2]
Bodies begin to stink within an hour of death
And if it`s warm outside then it`s quicker for the sour stench to leak out
the flesh
So think about the steps
You taking killing and be willing to consider the best
Be extra careful and grab an aerosol can of pepper spray
to coat the pieces the smell is unbearable
Hold the first layer of bag beautifully
that`ll keep animals from tearing open the bag to get to the meat
Squirrels, dogs, and birds
Officers with dogs that smell won`t find shit when they thrown off the scent
You could hang a **** upside down in ya tub
And slit his throat from ear to ear to remove a large amount of blood
Most of it`ll gush out on a tunnel once
But to get that last couple of pints drained work his arms like pumps
For dismemberment gentlemen I recommend
heavy duty brawn saws that cut through gendleums like pendulums
But if you want to take your time don`t rush it
either cut each piece off like Pizza Hut pizza with a rusty cleaver
Then put each piece up in a freezer
Take out the trash in a couple of days the stench of decomposition`s meager
And make sure there`s no incriminating papers in the bag
Letters, receipts, anything with ya name they`ll trace ya
I know it`s obvious but you`d be amazed at how easy it is
to be sloppy with this even the Mafia slips

[Chorus]
Dead Body Disposal
For those that don`t know what to do after ya foes are killed
Shit could get messy when the blood flow spills
You never know when you might need to know skills
In body disposal it`s no frills

[Hook]
Let`s talk about death baby
Disintegration of flesh you`ll see
Let`s talk about all the good things and the bad things
In hacking up ya meat

Let`s talk about death baby
Disintegration of flesh you`ll see
Let`s talk about all the good things and the bad things
In hacking up ya meat
Let`s talk about that!

[Brick Top from Snatch]

[Verse 3]
There`s more choices to choose kid
Bury the corpse in the ground, bury it at sea or the pieces get distributed
When using the ground a shallow grave isn`t allowed
`Cause the corpse`ll be found when the stench of it lingers out
Make sure it`s six feet deep or more
Construction sites work in formentioned
In what`s cemented suspended beneath the floor
Using the sea has its potential sequentionally
The sea destroys all evidence eventually
But make sure that you tie a weight to the body to keep it from floating
around and being discovered by mistake
Drop it as far from shore as possible otherwise it`ll pop up at low tide or
be seen by some fisherman`s opticals
Distributing! Body parts is riveting
I explained it in verbs once forgive me if I begin again
A wood chipper turns a corpse into chopped meat
Spread it all over ya grass then water it down properly
Within a few days the cadaver`s fertilizer
Your advisor`s taught you ways of covering up murders wiser
Regardless how you tried these methods
Be careful with prints and rented equipment use cash and fake id`s

[Chorus]
Dead Body Disposal
For those that don`t know what to do after ya foes are killed
Shit could get messy when the blood flow spills
You never know when you might need to know skills
In body disposal it`s no frills
Dead Body Disposal
Are you interested in hearing my proposal?
Shit could get messy when the blood flow spills
You never know when you might need to know skills
In body disposal it`s no frills

[Hook]
Let`s talk about death baby
Disintegration of flesh you`ll see
Let`s talk about all the good things and the bad things
In hacking up ya meat
Let`s talk about that!



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Boom-biddy-bye-bye, beotch.

(he he ...just for fun)http://www.francisnet.com/image/shovel.jpg



....that was a long way to go for a joke...

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homo homini lupus

Garland

That's right, keep your mouths shut. Here's why;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dillema

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homo homini lupus

Garland

Also...NEVER agree to take a polygraph, saying "**** off, eat a dick" is not an admission of guilt.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e29985609af1ca
The polygraph is, at best, considered to be 80% accurate. If you think that’s a good percentage, bear with me... In a hypothetical example given by the National Research Committee in 2003, a government agency with 10,000 employees, using the polygraph to root out spies, of an actual ten spies, the test would only find 8, and 1,600 innocent people would also lose their jobs, and be stigmatized and ruined.
Aside from the technical problems with the test are the practical problems that go with it’s misuse by law enforcement, according to Prof. Hontz, as well as the authors of a recent peer reviewed article in the American Journal of Bioethics;
1. Police misuse the polygraph by using it as a threat to obtain confessions by coercion.
2. Led to believe lying will send them to jail.
3. Inaccurate method of obtaining information or understanding the credibility of a subject, i.e. torture.
4. High-tech cudgel used to batter people into confessions.
5. It is often held up to be much more accurate than it actually is.



Be smarter than the average bear. Being aware of the problem is more than half the battle. If ever screened for employment with polygraphy, complain about your rights and point out the problems with polygraph testing, and no matter what you do, never voluntarily agree to take a polygraph test.

To paraphrase an analogy from my psychology professor (a self proclaimed stats geek, who wrote several articles and his thesis on the subject of psycho-physiological detectors of deception), it’s a percentages thing, would you stick a gun to your head with one live round and start clicking the trigger.

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homo homini lupus

thescottishdude

in the UK (and the USA as well probobly, as the legal system is soo similar - "the english legal system") you ar eallowed to use whatever you deem nessecery to defend yourself. so fi you are atacked by 3 thugs and feel you have to snap their necks DURING the attack then that's okay. But if you beat them up, tie them up, coverthem in petrol and set them on fire then that's goign to far. (that actually happened to a burglar, the london met cheif of police uses that example to demeonstrate goign too far).

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