szorn

No offense but TFT fits in with the first few systems mentioned in this thread. It's essentially rehashed SCARS which is just rehashed Kung Fu San Soo. While it may have been used successfully in limited real-life encounters, the same can be said of many of the martial arts systems out there. I am not saying it's bad but I think the basic recommendations made throughout this thread are better.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

MMA Apostate

I think I may have come on a little too strong on my first paragraph of my previous post that I wrote. I was just trying to ask the person if they wanted to learn soft fighting skills, hard fighting skills, or both. I decided for myself to learn hard fighting skills only and to use them when the situation was unavoidable and serious. Most situations on the street that require soft fighting skills are usually just bad social interactions. Which by doing some studying at home you can find creative ways to avoid or escape those situations before they go from bad to worse.

Now about what you said about TFT...

After looking at both systems before investing my conclusion was that TFT was meant more for civillian use and SCARS was meant more for the full out military man. Meaning that the practicality of each system better fit the people in these catagories. Not so much as being watered down.

However, your comparison of TFT to Kung Fu San Soo I found interesting. I never heard of the art and did some on-line researching. There are a good amount of simularities however there are a good amount of differences.(That I noticed in watching short video clips on various sites about the San Soo art and reading what the art was about) Two highly noticeable points is that TFT is more dynamic in its striking, and completely cuts out the visual mystique\fluff (Amongst other differences) that San Soo seems to keep a hold of and has their students learn. Which I think is a waste of time and money. I don't know if you have tried any of the two systems. Assuming you haven't or have only tried San Soo I can see how you drew that line though.

Your post got me thinking. I could become an instructor in TFT and try to get my black belt in San Soo. But I'll probably be kicked out for trying to use my "progressive" ways in with their traditional system. (Which would be great for marketing) And then I could create a new art called "Dynamic San Soo" Create a DVD compilation and offer seminar training and market it correctly to bring in the money.

Putting all joking aside... I am curious if I could get a more detailed explenation from you on how the basic systems already listed on other posts would be better than training in TFT for self defense. Especially for someone who only wants to train in Hard style fighting like myself.

Look forward to your reply, and you guys have a great day

szorn

It's interesting that neither Jerry nor Tim will talk much about their lineage. However, Jerry Peterson was a student of San Soo under Master Bill Hulsey. After Jerry received his black belt he created SCARS. Tim Larkin was a student and instructor under Jerry before he left to create TFT. There is is also SAFTA which was created by Lew Hicks who was also a student under Jerry. It amazes me how so many people can create their own systems after having predominately trained in only one art or system. But I guess that's why America is called the land of the free.

I was student of Kung Fu San Soo and I have seen many of the SCARS, SAFTA, and TFT videos. I have also corresponded with students of these systems via e-mail and I even have a private student who flew out to take the TFT course. From what I have seen and heard, these "modern" systems are all relatively the same, other than the names. You are correct in that they are a little less flowery than the traditional San Soo but they are still too flowery for my personal tastes in regards to self-defense.

These systems contain too many techniques and incorporate too many unnatural skills for basic self-defense. There was mention of Muay Thai which consists of a handful of basic punches, elbows, knees, and kicks that can be utilized in unlimited combinations, making it better for self-defense. Boxing is consists of even less tools and tactics making it more consistant with Hick's Law and better for basic self-defense. Those FMA systems which emphasize combatives over art & tradition would also be better choices considering that some of those systems were used on the battlefield up through WWII.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

MMA Apostate

I appreciate you educating me on the basis of the creation of SCARS. Which lead to the creation of TFT and SAFTA, and it appears that you've taken an interested look into the system(s) to form your opinion. Which I respect.

Acouple of things that I don't get though from your post is that you say the systems contain to many techniques. TFT is principled base and is about exploiting options for your benefit and has no enphasis on learning techniques. Just creating your own. I don't quite know what you mean about the incorporation of too many unatural skills for self defense.(But I would like to be educated) Also concerning Hicks Law I found a website http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm that talks about how not all things can be based on this law.

If you don't mind. I would like to PM you to ask you some more questions as I am interested in getting more of your opinion on this subject. I don't want to hijack this forum thread for my own personal benefit.

You guys have a great day

Garland

TFT? Tit for tat? I have another TFT acronym I won't post...but it might be fun to google.

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grappler-jordan

Steve,

At the risk of hijacking the thread, would you mind elaborating on this some for me? I am not sure I follow the whole, unnatural skills vs. natural motor skills... What is it exactly that is the defining difference between these that makes it so much easier to learn?

I am not trying to challenge your teaching or system, so please don't take it that way. I simply wish to gain some more knowledge on the topic itself, differences, how these "natural" skills are developed and taught. Thanks.

Jordan

szorn

I have been involved in this field for 17 years and while that 's not a long time, I made sure to make the best of that time by researching everything I could get my hands on regarding self-defense. I attempt to do my homework before commenting on anything.

Yes, TFT is based on principles, as is what I do but techniques are still involved. Any simple striking tool is a technique and any combination of movements & striking tools is a technique. Just because Tim refers to these combinations as "coordination sets" does not make them any less of a technique. Principles don't usually exist without techniques and techniques are usually ineffective without sound principles to support them.

Any movement or combination of movements which a person would not do on their own without training is considered unnatural. This is about 90% of most martial arts techniques. Now, I am not saying that some of these unnatural movements aren't applicable for self-defense but I am saying because they are unnatural they will require months or years of high rep practice to be applicable. On the other hand natural and instinctive movements are already hardwired into the neural-pathways and are therefore easier for most people to apply under stress with little or no conscious thought.

Here are some examples of unnatural & unsafe movements offered by those systems-

simultaneous hand and foot strikes
unorthodox position-based leverage & compression techniques
unsafe throws (aka sacrafice throws)
exaggerated chambering of the hands during strikes (all for power development)

Here are some examples taken from the two TFT articles that made it into Black Belt magazine-

2005 shows Tim demoing a wrist lock takedown (without diminishment), a side-armbar, and a cross-body armbar (going to the ground)

2006 shows Tim demoing a wrist lock takedown to a cross-body armbar variation, as well as a complex spinal compression that is tough to pull-off on a non-compliant partner.

Those systems also over-emphasize joint locks and bone breaking. In most cases, such techniques are very difficult to utilize under the stress of a real assault. Even if they are used successfully that doesn't guarantee an end to the altercation. This has been proven in NHB fights as well as on the street. There is also an over-emphasis on the "physiological reactions" to various strikes. This is taught in various martial arts but San Soo, SCARS, SAFTA, & TFT tend to stress it more than others. Jerry even gave it a cool sounding name- "Autokinematics". This appears to form the foundation of the TFT system. While it is true that there are some basic universal reactions to being struck, it's also true that one man's food is another man's poison. In other words, everyone is different and we all respond differently. This doesn't even take into consideration that the assailant may be high on drugs, adrenalized to the extreme, just plain furious, or they could be a "non-responder", a person who doesn't feel pain the same way others do. What's sad is that SCARS is supposed to be a military system designed for soldiers. However, standard duty gear will definitely influence how an enemy soldier reacts to the various strikes. In other words, this concept works great in a controlled training environnment but tends to fall apart under the chaotic nature of real combat.

In regards to Hick's Law- if you go to the website you posted and look under the instructor list you will find my name. I have been a student of Hock's for over 7 years. However, just because I am a student of his doesn't mean that I have to agree 100% with his belief system. The research into Hick's Law as it relates to motor-skill programming and specifically to real self-defense can be validated with the simple pressure testing of the students. If you do further research you will find that many reality-based self-defense instructors support the research behind Hick's Law.

Feel free to PM me but I see no reason why these responses shouldn't be made available to all forum members.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

MMA Apostate

I appreciate that you are willing to back up why you think the way you do and give detailed responses in doing so. For what it's worth you got my respect.

I am curious what system(s) you yourself train in, and what your training regement is like? I clearly don't have as much expereince as you do on the subject. So I figure I might as well sit down, shut up, and learn something.

Have a great day

szorn

Thanks, that is worth something. I respect you as well, especially for not taking my comments as a personal attack and allowing this discussion to turn into a flame war. I meant no offense in any way and I am glad you didin't see it that way.

Actually, over the years I have cross trained quite a bit. However, while I still periodically attend various training seminars on various systems I now tend to focus on basic self-defense & combatives during my own training and when teaching others. This training emphasizes the basics of empty-hand, impact weapons, edged weapons, and firearms. I created my own integrated approach that utilizes a few simple universal skill-sets that are applicable with and without weapons. I attempt to use natural & instinctive movements when possible, and very simple easy-to-learn movements when there are no appropriate natural movements to rely on. When practicing I usually practice the skill-sets in the air to enhance motor-programming several times a day, periodically practice with a training partner in various scenarios, practice basic power development by hitting pads & bags, etc. When possible I work through adrenal response drills with a partner that includes verbal & non-verbal de-escalation. The rest of the time I continue to research all aspects of self-defense and crime prevention. This includes such topics as motor-skills, adrenal response, non-verbal communication, teaching & learning theories, physical & emotional effects of assaults, etc. It seems like I learn something new ever day and that keeps reminding me that I am far from knowing it all .

Stay safe,
Steve Zorn, ICPS

thescottishdude

I'd actually say that my kng-fu an dkarate experiance are reall good for fighting your way out of trouble and then running. But their obvious disadvantage is the small amoutn of ground fighting they practise. I was just talking about that in my blog.

http://www.learnmartialartsonline.net/blog

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J-Luck

lol how is Krav Maga overrated???? The same way that bjj and boxing have proven effective in MMA, it has proven effective in armed combat by the israelis.... What's your basis?

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J-Luck

A good mix up would be a grappling base of wrestling, go heavy on the Judo(chose a Judo club that goes deep into the matwork), and sprinkle a lil Bjj on top to make sure the matwork you're learning in Judo is competitive... and presto!, you have a decent grasp on grappling.

Striking should be a base in boxing, heavy in the muay thai.

MMA and combatitives should be the icing. MMA to bring it all together in a practical way. Combatives are useful in introducing new fighting philosophies with groin kicks, eye gouging, throat strikes, ect.

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Garland

Exactly that... ARMED combat. The Isrealis aren't out there chop-sockey-ing up the Palestinians...they are blowing their brains out when they try to throw rocks at them.

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J-Luck

I see you pay no attention to the news. The battle between the two often goes into armed combat... this is just an ignorant reflection of your political views(and im not trying to offend you, in case i come across that way).

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Garland

That's what I said- ARMED. Krav Maga isn't helping them so much as learning how to properly use firearms and military type tactics IS.
Hence I said they AREN'T out there chop-sokey-ing the Palestinians...they are out there putting rounds into them.

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