Bank Employee Stops Thief - Page 9

The_Judo_Jibboo · 01-28-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

You do realize the significance of the difference in a Jutsu or Bugei art and a Budo system right?

i was pretty sure i had a basic grasp of the terms at least, why, is something i'm saying sounding way off base?

BoarSpear · 01-28-2007, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

of course we train to be stronger than an opponent, but that doesn't have to translate to being more violent.

Thats very Budo thinking...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

this philosophy doesn't perclude a knowledge of weapons and their use. i want to get into a knife art myself. i'm not talking about techniques or skillsets so much as i'm talking about attitudes and mindsets.

Again, are you sure you understand the difference in Budo systems and Jutsu systems? Do me a favor, explain what you see the difference as.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

All i'm saying is that i would rather work hard enough that i feel safe without an uzi tucked in my waistband.

An Uzi in your waistband would make you feel safe?

Like I said, many a life has been lost for want of weapons and the knowledge to PROPERLY use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

is this a general comment or directed at me? 'cause i'm pure judo buddy

Judo happens to be a Budo, (Civil art) , just like MMA and it suffers from a similar mindset, after all you're the one slamming Combatives people as driven by fear.

Again to paraphrase Draeger, Civil arts may be effective in some cases but are impractical for Military/SD purposes due to their lack of weapons training.

DickHardman · 01-28-2007, 05:37 AM

uke and boar, can you guys give us some video links to the type of training/martial arts you guys recommend? id like to check it out.

Jiu-fu fighter · 01-28-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Consider this:

The reputation of sport arts, which most TMA's are nowadays, is predicated upon how well they do in ideal situation like rings and mats..

I can somewhat agree with this..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

They're trained to respond to aggression in a sportive manner like exchanging and shooting-in. They won't hesitate to reproduce these methods on the street because they are accustomed to winning in this manner during kumite and randori, despite all the new variables that can now be introduced. .

Uke, I have done some wrestling and bjj and many others have done the grappling arts too. But please do not generalise us, we are not stupid.
I have gotten into a fight before and it has gone to the ground, since I have done bjj you might think that my first move was to go for an arm bar or triangle choke, but what I did was smash the guys face in with palm strikes, and I dug my fingers into his eyes........ I have known full well during my grappling classes that if It really came down to it, I would deploy dirty techniques not taught in class. But these grappling arts (which may be called sportive combatives), are still very useful in many ways and can be deployed in a real self defense situation. When I was on top of the guy digging my fingers into his eyes, I had a strong mount , I had managed to get the guy off of me, I had moved quickly, struck fast, all of these learned from grappling classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

The reputation of combatives is predicated upon the knowledge that a single knife can be the equalizer of any empty hand skill, and so because of this combative practitioners are usually always armed, and their focus is on weapon attacks, weapon disarms and retention, and awareness for the highest of street level violence. .

I agree that a knife can be quite the equalizer, but if you were somehow to lose this knife or forget it, than empty hand martial arts will sure help you there..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

I don't think any of this is underestimating anyone or anything. The point that I have made over and over again is that everything has a place and a use. But it isn't until a man has this understanding that he is able to stop wishing for things to be as he would like them and begin to devote his energies towards the mastery of things as they are..

ummmmm... I am not quite sure what you mean by this mastery...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

That has always been my point.

Point taken and respected, but I still disagree

Jiu-fu fighter · 01-28-2007, 10:22 AM

So.

Uke are we ready to compromise,

can we both agree that sportive combatives CAN be used effectively in self defense situations.

BUT

That urban combatives and RBSD are definetly a class higher than the rest

?

The_Judo_Jibboo · 01-28-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

Again, are you sure you understand the difference in Budo systems and Jutsu systems? Do me a favor, explain what you see the difference as.

sure thing, though this is based entirely on a few articles i've read and some of my own interpretation/observation, mainly in the difference between judo and jujitsu. The most basic, practical difference is that the jutsu was literally the "art" or craft of a warrior class. it was a set of skills used along with others to make a living. the "do" is a more encompassing world view built on observations/lessons members of that warrior class learned while employing their skills, often combined with borrowed philosophies. That is to say, the Budo (i'll use your terms since you seem to know more about it) comes from questions that arise when the bugei interacts with lifestyles outside the warrior class. how do you live well with these skills you've developed?
again i'm just laying down my understanding of the subject as you requested. feel free to take me to school

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

An Uzi in your waistband would make you feel safe?

Like I said, many a life has been lost for want of weapons and the knowledge to PROPERLY use them.

no it wouldn't, quite the opposite, it would make me paranoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

Judo happens to be a Budo, (Civil art) , just like MMA and it suffers from a similar mindset, after all you're the one slamming Combatives people as driven by fear.

Again to paraphrase Draeger, Civil arts may be effective in some cases but are impractical for Military/SD purposes due to their lack of weapons training.

But you were talking about TMAs and MMAs when i made that comment, not budo and bugei. do you classify Judo an mma? and MMA does not seem like a Budo to me because there's no philosophy tied up in it's practice.
i don't mean to slam anyone. fear is one of the most basic driving forces and we all feel it's influence to an extent. but it's something that we should try to recognize and determine if it's doing us more harm than good.
can you not learn the application of weapons with a budo mindset?

Uke · 01-28-2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiu-fu fighter

So.

Uke are we ready to compromise,

can we both agree that sportive combatives CAN be used effectively in self defense situations.

BUT

That urban combatives and RBSD are definetly a class higher than the rest

?

Of course they can be useful, Jiu-fu fighter. That wasn't the point. The reality of street violence is weapons. There's no reason for you to agree on that because that's a fact. Combatives training is predicated upon weapons because weapons are the most dangerous element and require the most skill to deal with.

As I've stated before, a high level tae kwon do fighter could probably kick a weapon arm away, kick out the attacker's knee and with the same leg deliver a finishing blow to the attacker's face. Its very possible and I've met men who have the skill level to do it against the average knife wielding assailant. I've met capoeiristas who can do the same. But they have invested considerable years reaching a level of skill and athleticism that makes them rare. Those men are the exception. I've seen plenty of people from TMA's who have not reached that skill level get hurt really badly trying to use what they knew to deal with people that were armed.

Anything can be used to ward off an attack. I don't recall anyone ever saying that that wasn't true. That's why I wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

I'm sure a football player somewhere in the world has used a shoulder rush tackle to foil a mugging attempt. I'm sure a ballet dancer somewhere has thrown a high kick to defend themselves again a weapon. As I said, anything is possible, but not everything is safe and/or wise to attempt. You could argue that anything could work even though its meant and trained to be used within the confines of its own rules. I know masters of tae kwon do, capoeira, aikido, goju, shotokan and other traditional martial arts that are amazing fighters and could compete at the top levels of NHB. What do they all have in common though? They all have to be in professional level shape in order to be able to be effective with what they've learned. That's the difference. If they fall out of shape for whatever reason, all the years of training and dedication go out of the window. They still have better skills that non-trained fighters, but they aren't even 60% of what they were when they were in pro-level shape. Combatives doesn't require a man to live unrealistically. It addresses the fact that not every man who has a need to defend himself will be in the shape to throw a triple spinning kick found in tae kwon do. He won't be able to do handstands out on the pavement a spin into wheel kicks like you see in capoeira. As you pointed out, most won't be out there picking men up off the ground to powerbomb them. Those are sportive methods that don't teach you to maximize your tools. They teach you to display toughness and exert a lot of energy while attempting to pace yourself. You would have to spend 10-20 years achieving a level of athleticism in capoeira, tae kwon do or boxing just to defend yourself in weapon or multiple attack situations. In top level combatives, you're learning how to defend against blades, firearms and several attackers on your first day. You'd have a higher degree of understanding to survive street violence within 6 months of combatives as opposed to 5 years of training in MMA or other sportive arts.

The above passage goes right to the heart of your post, Jiu-fu. Anything is possible, but there are specific methods geared for specific things. You can use a wrench to hammer a nail but after practice and experience you'll learn what it's suited for.

I always respect your points, but don't always agree, bro.

Jiu-fu fighter · 01-29-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

I always respect your points, but don't always agree, bro.

Same here

jubaji · 04-22-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingoftheforest

I loved to show you in person.

I forgot how scared I was of this.

01-28-2007, 10:22 AM	#125 (permalink)
Jiu-fu fighter Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 291 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	So. Uke are we ready to compromise, can we both agree that sportive combatives CAN be used effectively in self defense situations. BUT That urban combatives and RBSD are definetly a class higher than the rest ? __________________ My strength resolves in the mind, once I have made up my mind nothing is too far from me. "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands in times of trial and controversy" Martin Luther King Jr.

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01-28-2007, 05:37 AM	#123 (permalink)
DickHardman Master Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,055 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	uke and boar, can you guys give us some video links to the type of training/martial arts you guys recommend? id like to check it out.

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