Training for the Street - Page 2

jubaji · 03-27-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pUke

blocks and responses that aren't as effective in a society where guns and blades are the trump cards.

= pUke is aware of his physical inferiority and wants to think that walking around with a knife he's never used somehow negates his personal shortcomings.

Blue Wave Gym · 03-27-2007, 03:30 PM

since I started do ma I've laways had a will this help in a street fight frame of reference hence my sometimes dissapointment with tma.I've been a fighter as well as a bouncer and been into altercation as a private citizen as well. I think I would fight a person the same way in the ring or street sure the ta tics might be slighlty different if elbows or face punching weren't allowed in a competition.I don't think what technique you use is as important as how you use it i.e. mentalit and that is where a fighter has an edge he is accostomed to people trying to ko him. A cop or bouncer would have good practicle experience but they are limit to escalation of ofrce issues. In mma or mt/kickboxing I would use punches elbows knees and kicks the same in the street. punches/elbows to the face/jaw knees to the body and low kicks. if it went ot the ground I would try to slam the guy into something or the ground then ground and pound. I would try to avoid going to the cement at all costs lol.

Uke · 03-27-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubaji

= pUke is aware of his physical inferiority and wants to think that walking around with a knife he's never used somehow negates his personal shortcomings.

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. I see you're back to you little dick ways again. At least you're being true to yourself. Only someone with a 1 inch penis could find the time to haunt and harass other men on the internet consistently.

Good luck with that.

jubaji · 03-27-2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pUke

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. .

Yes, with "others" worth having a dialog with. You do not rise to that standard, pUke.

Uke · 03-27-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubaji

Yes, with "others" worth having a dialog with. You do not rise to that standard, pUke.

Caught in another lie, jubaji.
Read and see your more civilized side.

Invincible

I don't know what happened, but somehow your neurosis has gotten the better of you again and you're back to using tourette's syndrome to communicate.

Oh well.

jubaji · 03-27-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pUke

Read and see your more civilized side.

I gave you a chance, but here you are back to your old ways of just repeating the same tired dogma again.

The_Judo_Jibboo · 03-27-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Nice post, Judo Jibboo.

Keeping in mind that kyokushin is a TMA that isn't rooted in weapon skills, its hard to call it an urban combative. Most styles of karate and jujitsu in the past 50 years groomed men to be hardcore hand to hand fighters. Many men until this day believe that the measure of a man's prowess comes from his ability to win empty hand.

Of course karate has weapons, and many practitioners with high skills in using them, but if you take a look at how TMA karate was built, those were not the skills that the curriculum were built around. There are few full contact tournaments that allow weapon combat. The majority are forms competitions. And the high level weapon skills don't come until the student has reached mid-ranged black belt level.

I wrote all the above to say that just because kyokushin is hardcore karate doesn't mean that it is more than what it is. The art of the hand and foot.

I don't disagree at all. Kyokushin is not an urban combative, which is precisely the contrast I'm getting at, but I must admit that I wasn't even thinking of weapons here. I guess the parellel to something like kyokushin or boxing in the realm of weapons would be something like the Dog Brothers. You certainly wouldn't want to be trading blows like you see them do if it were knives instead of sticks, but that element of realism is exchanged for learning to apply angles of attack and good footwork under pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Personally, I am an admirer of the founder because of his fierce determination and commitment to his pursuit of mastery. He attained a level of conditioning and mastery that to my knowledge hasn't been duplicated since. He is the bar that you should measure kyokushin by. Oyama didn't need a head shot to win a real fight. He could break your ribs with one blow. He could break your arm if you blocked. He could break a man several ways without ever having to attack the head. I'm sure there are students out there who have approached his level, but I haven't heard of one that actually matched it.

If a kyokushin fighter actually reaches or even approaches the level of the founder, he is a weapon. Yes, he will have some habits that don't mesh well with weapon work which is the reality of urban combatives, much in the same way that former kickboxing legends have developed bad habits in the ring but turn to combatives after their career ends.

But, if a kyokushin fighter has put in the time to condition his body in the manner that Oyama did, the way he hits is very different that what most have felt before. 270 fights against other karateka, wrestlers, boxers, judoka, jujitsu and kung fu fighters, and most ended with JUST ONE punch.

IMO, true kyokushin is Oyama's way of commitment to conditioning the human body to the point where having to pick targets no longer matters. Only connecting cleanly.

First I think it should be understood that conditioning is usually a choice. Most RBSD schools don't demand that their students get in top physical shape, but they offer programs that are geared towards that end. Its up to the student to take advantage.

Sport TMA styles are competitive, which demands a higher level of athleticism. This is an obvious advantage, but not on exclusive to sport MA. Its just that competition forces competitors to raise their game, while there are RBSD schools that just enforce a strict balance of conditioning and technique.

I'm not sure I'd call what Oyama did a sport. His level of conditioning was meant to end fights, not compete in them. Seeing some kyokushin schools today doesn't reflect what Oyama did and accomplished.

The idea of one hit/one kill really doesn't apply to most schools anymore.

I certainly don't think that Oyama's goal was to be a proficient sport fighter, but kyokushin today seems very similar to judo in practice, i.e. the sport element is a primary factor in attaining the art's higher goals.

I don't mean to get too focused on kyokushin though, boxing, judo, muay thai etc. would make equally good examples.

The_Judo_Jibboo · 03-27-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Well in the early UFCs i don't think many of those guys had fought anyone outside their respective styles (some looked like they'd never been hit before for that matter). There's something of a rhythm to fights you see within the same style. Karate guys are used to seeing karate reactions to their attacks, same goes for Muay Thai, boxing, and so on. When those reactions weren't presented, alot of training went out the window, and i think that's when you saw people becoming brawlers. I think this has been remedied to a large extent in MMA now as you still see guys with solid foundations in one art who are ready for anything within the boundaries of MMA rules.

Even this isn't a necessary short-coming of all sport arts though, good structuring of the rules can make a huge difference. There is a lot of room for variation in the rhythm of a judo match because aside from a few restrictions on gripping and only being able to lock the elbow, very little that falls under the title "grappling" is prohibited in a judo match. MMA has done this for striking and grappling together. With an eye toward self-defense the rules of a sport match can prevent some bad habits for the street as well, for example, you'll get penalized for fighting bent over in a judo match. Even though it's fine from a grappling point of view, the rule is there because in real life you'd get pummelled by knees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Again, I'm not familiar with RBSD training methods, but what I wonder is how much more likely is it for someone to revert to these instinctive brawler responses if all they've ever done is step drills?

DickHardman · 03-27-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Caught in another lie, jubaji.
Read and see your more civilized side.

Invincible

I don't know what happened, but somehow your neurosis has gotten the better of you again and you're back to using tourette's syndrome to communicate.

Oh well.

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned after people started to flat out beg him to stop trolling our threads and forums. sadly though, after 6000+ posts of one liners and insults, two or three legit posts really isnt going to change people's perspective of you.

he is still in the same category as matt blake and nutter, even if he himself really wasnt pretending to be those people on a different screen name.

DickHardman · 03-27-2007, 07:35 PM

as for sport arts being effective or not, here is a picture of usa and thai soldiers learning muay thai in thailand from a master. these soldiers arent training for mma/kickboxing matches either......

"Muay Thai or Thai Boxing is a self-defense technique that was developed and tested in battle by the ancient warriors of Thailand. Today, the Thai military as well as the U.S. SEAL teams and members of the CIA continue to use its effective striking techniques. In addition, it is also the National Sport of Thailand. "

"The Royal Thai Army (including Master Sgt. Satit Sitparsert in the center) shares the hand-to-hand combat art of military-style Muay Thai with soldiers from the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corp as part of Exercise Cobra Gold '97 in Tak, Thailand on May 15, 1997."
http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/

SamuraiGuy · 03-27-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

I don't believe that I bashed anything.

Excuse me if I don't raise my cup to celebrate everything that you and some others here feel is important.

I have acknowledged that every style/system has worth and effectiveness.

If my opinion isn't to your liking, then don't read what I write or respond to it.

Notice ... I don't usually respond to you? Or on the MMA forum? Or to anything that is written by forum members who never write about the arts, and only offer commentary?

My post on this topic was for judo jibboo, not for every MMA zealot who feels the need to raise the flag and discuss what I feel in the context that they feel comfortable doing it.

Its amazing that after all the debates you'd call that example ridiculous when its demonstrated in nearly EVERY MMA match. Whatever dude. But this isn't about MMA. Its about who would make what adjustment if the need came for it. But making an minor adjustment and fighting like a differently trained man are two different things.

A kyokushin fighter suddenly deciding to punch to the face is alot different than a BJJ player suddenly deciding to fight on his feet against a better striker when his training is solely in BJJ. VERY DIFFERENT. The difference is in moving your punch up about a foot as opposed to fighting completely out of your element.

That was the other point.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW SOMEONE "PULL GAURD" IN AN MMA MATCH!

My point wasnt that you say BJJ guys take the fight to the ground, or that they would wnat to grapple instead of strike or anything about that,

Its that you need to stop assuming BJJ people instantly pull gaurd, honestly read what im writing here, dont write a fucking story about something else, and about how you dont usually read what I write, grow up, in general BJJ PEOPLE DONT PULL GAURD IN STREET FIGHTS, they dont pull gaurd in mma fights.

I'm not talking about whether they grapple or take it to the ground, im talking PULLING GAURD, a simple act. They dont do it, get it out of your head, and stop spewing it as something they do.

This is coming from someone whos trained Judo, Boxing, and RBSD systems as well as BJJ, its just fucking stupid.

Edit; upon re-reading this I just think that your an uneducated idiot whos spouting his mouth off without knowing what each term implies..

Pulling gaurd is when you go from standing and jump and wrap your legs around the person, or drag them down into your gaurd.

Re-gaining gaurd or something when your already on the ground IS NOT pulling gaurd, and in general its a decent tactic when someone is smashing you. I know if you could magically stand up from mount that would be great, but most of the time you cant, so you regain some form of gaurd and stand up from there.

I honestly hope thats the case and you dont believe that BJJ guys Pull Gaurd (using your newfound actual definition).

WildWest. · 03-27-2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Seems to most people that in every instance that happened except for BJJ. And the only reason that it was different there was because the flailing and brawling wasn't happening once you tied someone up on the ground. That doesn't mean that it required any more skill. It just means that there aren't two way brawls from the guard. The guard and mount do a good job of smothering punches and hand strikes, but nothing against a blade. Every good BJJ man would prefer to end a fight quickly IF and I mean IF he could. But we see them consistently flop to the guard once they get hit.

What does all this mean?

It means that whether you're a kyokushin fighter or a BJJ player, you'll fight like you've trained. I'm sure you can try to make some adjustment on the fly, just like Nogueira tries to box guys he can get away with trying it against, and kyokushin fighters may compete in K-1 and hit in the face. But when it all comes down to it, when they get in the thick of it, they'll fall back on the core of what they know.

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

This is quite true. The early UFC's showed that when the pressure's on the combatants "lost" their training in their styles and reverted to haymakers and wild brawling.....basically he who made contact first usually won. It does tell you something. Perhaps it tells you that despite all the theoretically practical techniques that you can learn in MA's, if you don't possess timing you don't possess anything.

Uke · 03-27-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

Well in the early UFCs i don't think many of those guys had fought anyone outside their respective styles (some looked like they'd never been hit before for that matter). There's something of a rhythm to fights you see within the same style. Karate guys are used to seeing karate reactions to their attacks, same goes for Muay Thai, boxing, and so on. When those reactions weren't presented, alot of training went out the window, and i think that's when you saw people becoming brawlers. I think this has been remedied to a large extent in MMA now as you still see guys with solid foundations in one art who are ready for anything within the boundaries of MMA rules.

The only real difference between the early UFC's and today's Pride and UFC is that:

1)People are more versed in dealing with the guard.

and

2)They are professional athletes who are in professional athlete shape to give us bouts that won't look as sloppy and the fighters won't simply be hugging 5 minutes into the matches.

Uke · 03-27-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Judo_Jibboo

I certainly don't think that Oyama's goal was to be a proficient sport fighter, but kyokushin today seems very similar to judo in practice, i.e. the sport element is a primary factor in attaining the art's higher goals.

Oyama didn't train to compete in sports, Judo Jibboo. He trained to end any confrontation. Period. Remember, he fought in 270 no rule matches in his career and ended most of them fast with one punch. And that's not counting with the Gracie math either. His level of conditioning, strength and ability crossed the line of fanaticism early on in his life. You won't see training like his today.

Tom Yum · 03-27-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uke

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. I see you're back to you little dick ways again. At least you're being true to yourself. Only someone with a 1 inch penis could find the time to haunt and harass other men on the internet consistently.

Good luck with that.

Damn, both you guys keep mentioning male privates in your posts.

03-27-2007, 03:30 PM	#17 (permalink)
Blue Wave Gym Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: minnesota Posts: 960	my two cents since I started do ma I've laways had a will this help in a street fight frame of reference hence my sometimes dissapointment with tma.I've been a fighter as well as a bouncer and been into altercation as a private citizen as well. I think I would fight a person the same way in the ring or street sure the ta tics might be slighlty different if elbows or face punching weren't allowed in a competition.I don't think what technique you use is as important as how you use it i.e. mentalit and that is where a fighter has an edge he is accostomed to people trying to ko him. A cop or bouncer would have good practicle experience but they are limit to escalation of ofrce issues. In mma or mt/kickboxing I would use punches elbows knees and kicks the same in the street. punches/elbows to the face/jaw knees to the body and low kicks. if it went ot the ground I would try to slam the guy into something or the ground then ground and pound. I would try to avoid going to the cement at all costs lol. __________________ Tiens, voila du boudin, voila du boudin, voila du boudin Pour les Alsaciens, les Suisses, et les Lorrains Pour les Belges, il n'y en a plus, pour les Belges, il n'y en a plus Ce sont des tireurs au cul. Tireurs au cul

03-27-2007, 07:35 PM	#25 (permalink)
DickHardman Master Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,055	as for sport arts being effective or not, here is a picture of usa and thai soldiers learning muay thai in thailand from a master. these soldiers arent training for mma/kickboxing matches either...... "Muay Thai or Thai Boxing is a self-defense technique that was developed and tested in battle by the ancient warriors of Thailand. Today, the Thai military as well as the U.S. SEAL teams and members of the CIA continue to use its effective striking techniques. In addition, it is also the National Sport of Thailand. " "The Royal Thai Army (including Master Sgt. Satit Sitparsert in the center) shares the hand-to-hand combat art of military-style Muay Thai with soldiers from the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corp as part of Exercise Cobra Gold '97 in Tak, Thailand on May 15, 1997." http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/ Attached Images

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