Ghost

i dont disagree with that at all, i hope you dont feel i was attacking your training. if you are enjoying it and its what you want to do then that is fantastic. and yes i agree that self defence/martial arts clubs trying to pass themselves off as the real deal when they are far from it should be shut down asap as should anything that isnt what it says on the label.

Given your previous and current choices of occupation your training makes perfect sense.
On a side note id love to do the gunfighting stuff, i bet that would be great to learn and really intense.
So on topic i think training to defeat opponents depends entirely on where you interests are. this can be affeted by where you live and what you do for a job.
I guess its down to making a realistic best guess of what threats you face in your daily life/job.
In my opinion most people dont face much of a threat in most countries. Therefore the need to train is limited beyond being a personal choice.

However this is the reason so many mcdojos have turned up, because there is no threat, if people faced a real threat there would be no mcdojos by definition because they would be proven to not work. Mcdojo's are the direct result of a more peaceful society. Which is a shame for the martial arts world as I beleive that martial arts/self defence should be just that, a way of war and self defence. a catch 22 if you like.

darrianation

Ghost, I think there are at least three things we can agree on here,

1. You should train however you want.
2. Any reason for training is a valid reason.
3. Folks who have trained in the martial arts once they have experienced failure often change there perspective on training and seek out other more effective means of training.

Unfortunately it isn’t until someone has met failure with their current training regiment that the paradigm shift occurs. I think you are right that the Mcdojos exist because the practitioner hasn’t yet found him/herself facing the terrorist with an AK in the mall parking lot or the criminal thug wanting nothing more to kill, rape, and maim. That and marketing allows the Mcdojos to persist.

But today we see plenty of examples of terrorist (foreign and domestic terrorists) operating on our soil (in the UK too) and we read or see on the television of brutal savage attacks often committed by armed thugs, that should be enough to get people looking for training that will give them the best chance at winning such an encounter. But there will always be sheep who will be content with playing ostrich burying there head in the sand denying it can happen to them.

But in the end we need to open our eyes and realize that it can happen to us even if it is a long shot, combined with the desire to win, and mixed with the ability to win will allow us to do just that.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

Ghost

Good points again. The kind of thing that when i see happen makes me think well there is a chance that that could happen are when hooded gangs attack people for a dare and sometimes end up killing them or for their car etc, this does happen in the uk though im not sure it would be so easy to get round these gangs beyond carrying a machette or a gun which would see you serve a long prison sentence here and isnt that practical, well a gun would be but not the knife. But guns arent easy to get hold of here that i know of.

I would like to address the terrorism issue i guess as a side note. I think this is an area that is exaggerated. In london, where i live we have faced terrorism for many, many years from the IRA. now this was a serious threat, every train station near my house has been blown up as have many areas in london and other stations me and my friends have used.
I have twice woken up to my windows being blown out by bomb blasts as a teenager. That seems quite incredible to say in a western, modern city such as london to me now.
Growing up we would often not travel into central london at all at certain tiimes because the threat was too great. yet the threat was from bombs, something very hard to defend against. My whole teenage life growing up was affected by what the IRA did in london.

Right now we have a terrorist threat from extremists and tbh the attitude in the uk is that we dont really take them that seriously as civilians. This is because compared to the IRA they are a bunch of idiots that have got lucky a couple of times. The IRA were scary, these guys arent.
REcently a guy set himself on fire trying to drive into an airport. thats the level being faced.
Moreover, the attacks that have been succesful have been suicide bombings that are virtually impossible to stop. These guys are at least bright enough to realise that going on the rampage with an AK is going to get them nowhere fast.Given the level of bungled attempts they have made so far i wouldnt be suprised if they shot themselves on the way.
This really is why i was saying hte drunk, the mugger and possibly hooded gangs are what we are likely to face if at all.

But yes i think we definately have some common ground and i think our differences largely are due to the places we live and life experiences we have had.
I guess ive diverted this from what you really wanted to talk about but it was a point i wanted to get across. If you asked me what one area i would think would be most useful, it would be to train against multiple drunk attackers looking for a punch up. because thats the most likely threat where i live.

darrianation

Ghost your comments are appreciated and they are valid points.

There is a social and political as well as practical difference between our two societies which sometimes limits what we can do with our training as well as what threat types we'll most likely see.

If your most likely encounter is the gang of drunks showing what big men they are to their friends and you are prevented by political and social restraints from training in firearms all you can do is the best you can with what you have. In the U.S. it is a different story, but you have some good recourses their in the UK such as folks like Dennis Martin, Geoff Thompson, Lee Morrison, Peter Consterdine, and et al, who offer some pretty good training.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

darrianation

Ghost tell me how dealing with the potential threat of facing mutiple drunks has shaped how you train?

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

Shoot

You might find this interesting:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_04.html

Obviously, probably all of us on this forum have some level of concern for personal safety. That's at least part of the reason that most of us study martial arts. But my points are these: 1. the odds of actually being the victim of violent crime are very low, especially if you don't do drugs and avoid drunkeness in public. 2. the returns on your training investment greatly deminish beyond a certain threshold level, which is pretty low. All you can do is increase your percentage chance of survival through fitness and behavior control. Merely being in shape from weight lifting and cardio will greatly increase that percentage chance. Add in a REASONABLE level of martial arts training and that percentage increases more.

Even if you find yourself in a lightening strike rare situation even the best training in the world will not make up for luck/bad luck, common sense, instincts--things you can never train for. And, I submit to you that the all time "best" program is not going to yeild you a much better chance of survival than a reasonable martial arts and fitness program.

I've been careful to not define what is excessive and "reasonable." There's no certain point where a reasonable program turns excessive, but certainly training your life away to fight an ex-Navy SEAL turned criminal is a waste of time.

__________________
"I don't know Karate, but I know Karazy!" --James Brown

Shoot

Some other interesting stats:

Most murders carried out by someone the victim knew:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...rtable_09.html

The prevalance of the use of weapons in aggrevated assaults:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offe...aulttable.html

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_15.html

That's good reason to learn some techniques involving the use of weapons. So IF someone decides they really want to hurt you, there's a 75-80% chance they'll use a weapon. I guess training to fight in the UFC is not the best self defense advice! BJJ, anyone?

EDIT: This is even better: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

__________________
"I don't know Karate, but I know Karazy!" --James Brown

Shoot

about one injury per 50 hours of participation--same as rugby. 1 in 4 males and 1in 7 females participating in martial arts will be injured per year. Weightlifting yields and injury rate of one injury per every 8,000 hours of participation.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0418.htm

If you do a little research into the grappling arts you'll find they are very dangerous (high accident rate). Check out judo and wrestling.

__________________
"I don't know Karate, but I know Karazy!" --James Brown

darrianation

Shoot, so is your point to reduce everything down to a number? Tell that to the victims of violent crime that they are just a number a number so small you don’t think it is worth your time to consider it a problem.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

Shoot

My point is to prepare appropriately and rationally. You have a less than 1% chance of being hurt as a victim of violent crime this year. You will be injured four times in a year that you practice martial arts or once in every 50 hours of practice. Cost/Benefit--think about it and plan accordingly.

Next time you think about recommending some martial arts program designed to turn people into "perfect weapons" try telling it to people with permanent chronic pain from recreational martial arts injuries.

__________________
"I don't know Karate, but I know Karazy!" --James Brown

darrianation

Some background:

The house I grew up in was shot up several times by gang bangers shooting up the neighborhood.

My house (growing up) was broken into four times once while my dad was home alone and once while I was home…I stopped the bad guys who entered my home at 3 AM with a shotgun (they retreated as soon as they saw my gun…I did not shoot).

I was shot at driving down the street in Tempe Arizona. A group of youths pulled along side me and open fired hitting my truck with three rounds. There was no precipitating event.

In the apartment where I lived in Phoenix I had a forced entry…I stopped them (3 of them) with a baseball bat. I was shot at but I wasn’t hit I hit the guy in the head and knocked him out cold and retrieved his gun and the other two fled. I sleep with a baseball bat and Glock next to my bed to this day.

That same apartment complex where I lived at the time was raided by the SWAT team at least 6 times and one resulted in a shootout with police.

In that same Neighborhood in phoenix I witnessed two murders.

Once in the Black Angus parking lot in Phoenix where I went to pick up a friend who was to drunk to drive home, the parking lot exploded with gun fire when two rival groups open up with full automatic rifles.

Just last year my 84 year old mother had a forced entry in that same home where I grew up…she stopped the man with a pistol I gave her…she didn’t shoot him, as soon as he saw the gun he ran away.

I was in a McDonalds in Miami Florida when it was robbed at gun point.

And there have been other incidents as well.

I have had a friend who was murdered during a robbery. Another friend of mine wife was raped when a stranger made forced entry into his home while he was at work.

I know at least three other women who have been forcibly raped.

Must I go on? Because I can.

By the same token I have known many people who have successfully defended themselves against multiple armed opponents.

And again all you have to do is read the newspaper or watch the evening news to see criminal assaults and murders take place just about everyday somewhere in the city.

I lived in Baltimore where there were between three hundred and four hundred murders a year, that’s pretty much one everyday. Washington DC averages over 300 murders a year and so do many other big metro areas. And not all those victims are gang bangers killing gang bangers or drug dealers killing drug dealers. Working as a Paramedic in cities like Phoenix, Denver, Baltimore, and Washington DC I have seen many innocent victims of brutal violence.

So go ahead and burry your head in the sand and pretend it can never happen to you or someone you love.

If your chances are a million to one that you become a victim of violent crime…well, that’s no comfort to the one.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

darrianation

I find the older folks get, and as their athleticism declines the more they are apt to get into firearms training. And firearms training is a pretty good way to even the playing field when you the youth and vigor begin to wind down.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

Ghost

TBH it hasnt had any effect on my training, but it has an affect on my behaviour when out. I dont drink too much in public places. in fact i dont drink much at all but even less so in public. When entering a bar or pub i do a quick scan of the place for any likely trouble types. And a scan for all the exits and the general layout of the place.
I havent been taught what to do i just work things out for myself. I do everything possible to avoid confrontation because it will always mean one group of guys against another, most of them being completely untrained in anything.

Beyond that i havent really needed anything else. Reading what you wrote previously about where you grew up im not surpised at what you have chosen. i would be doing the same myself in that situation.
This is a UK-USA difference, in the uk its largely drunken brawls and the scenes you describe make national news and happen occasionally. i think in the states its more common and a threat that has to be dealt with. i guess thats small island life vs massive country.

darrianation

How does Bubba change the way I train?

Considering I train for the extreme event against intelligent strong multiple armed opponents both in day light and low light conditions and knowing that the attack will likely come by way of surprise I have to have a way to ferret out intent and the ability to manage unknown contacts.

Criminal attacks occur at very close range so I need a way to access my weapons from very close range. So, I had to develop an interface between empty hands (or being unarmed) to being armed.

I know I have to recognize an impeding assault before it happens and take measures to either escape if possible or preempt if not. I must be able to fight “Proactively” and “Reactively”. The IAD (Immediate action drills) come into play if a sudden-onset fight occurs (ambush).

He forces me to study all I can about criminology, sociology, performance and evolutionary psychology so I can understand the criminal, his motivations, and the reality event.

Fighting a super villain I am forced to integrate multiple fighting platforms, that is, HTH, guns (pistol, rifle, and shotgun), knives, sticks, and improvised weaponry. And more importantly I must smooth out the transitions between each platform until any gaps disappear.

Since the threat can manifest itself from any distance I must have tactics for managing threats from 1mm to 500 meters.

Tactics become more important than technique and the MINDSET must be resolute and absolute. I must be prepared mentally and physically to commit savagery on my opponent to eliminate the threat.

I must do a good amount of training in low light conditions…low light changes everything.

I must dress tactically, my entire wardrobe is based on hiding weapons and footwear made for fighting.

The method I choose must be destructive and attack-oriented and the tactics and techniques have to fit my framework of logic and ruthlessness. This is my Religion!

I must test everything I do in unscripted force on force drills to expose any weaknesses within the method.

Experiment, experiment, experiment!

Bubba forces me to give honest self-evaluation in all I do.

I must evaluate all my experiences from the past (growing up), from training, and from the field where I dealt with violence everyday.

I must be willing to let go of all the things that don’t work (even when I have invested a lot of time, energy, and money in it) and be open-minded enough to discover new things that I hadn’t considered before.

Always seek knowledge and better more efficient ways of doing things.

Train with different instructors instead of getting caught up in one single minded training philosophy.

I had to become an eclecticsist, an integratist, and a generalist.

Training becomes an exercise in integration, contextually underscored training and cognitive development.

Now this isn’t for everybody. There are sheep, there are sheep dogs, and there are wolves. The sheepdog must be ready on any given day to face the wolf in battle. You can be more skilled and motivated or he can…the choice is yours.

And I still find time to relax, paint my home, help my children do their homework, go hiking/backpacking, take the kids fishing, go hunting, spend time here at “Defend.Net, and spend time with my family. I don’t spend all my time at the gym, but I do train regularly.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!

darrianation

I know many people seeking self-defense training don’t want after all preferring some watered down political correct version of Bif the playground bully picking on the Karate kid. They either want to think they are training for the reality event without putting in the work or they want to be fighters.

Fighters maybe skilled but fighting and self-defense, which I really prefer to call self-offense”, are not the same thing. A fighter may be able to handle some low-level conflicts but they do not have the training and skills to meet all the variable condition of the criminal environment.

A friend of mine a brilliant martial artist in his own right, a former army Ranger who served in Iraq, owns and operates his own gym where he teaches karate, BJJ, MMA, and firearms. There is a sign above his door that reads “Only the deadly serious need apply”.

But again any reason for training is a valid one. If your reason for training is for an other purposes other than RBSD…well there are gyms for sheep then there are gyms for sheepdogs.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

NOBAMA!