gregimotis

Maybe 'They' can, but 'You' can't. That's the analogy.

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Ghost

that means absoultely nothing, we arent talking about the actions of one person, we are talking about "they" the collective actions of everyone. thats the whole point of the thread, and that teachers cant opt out and just say "all we are meant to do is teach"

gregimotis

I don't think it's a school problem at all, I think it's a larger societal problem and I've been trying to pin it down for a long time now. I think there is a disconnectedness in American culture such that people don't feel that they know each other in a neighborly sense. Americans seem to see each other more as strangers and also to view strangers as threats.

In schools it presents this way: If parents trust the teacher and principle, and the child gets suspended for fighting (for example) the parents are likely to assume the school made the right decision. They are going to expect the child to explain why he's in trouble with the school. This is the way school/parent relations once worked if my our parents are to be believed. On the other hand, if the parents start with distrust of the school and the kid gets suspended, then marching down and demanding an explanation from the principle is more the parental response, no? It an 'us versus them'.


I don't know how it was fifty years ago in America - maybe 'the good old days' weren't, but today there are a number of things undeniably wrong. Regular school shootings is just one. Another is the ubiquity of the lawyer and the civil suit. A third can be found in traffic - the light turns green and the guy behind me is laying on his horn before i can even find the clutch. People stopping cars to have fistfights (or worse). Folks don't even stop to offer each other help alongside the road, and if they do stop they are greeted with suspicion first and thanks last.

I don't know. It seems to me that Americans (I can't speak for anybody else) don't trust each other well enough to work together. Nobody seems to want to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. Lawyers have replaced handshakes and the television has replaced the social club.

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npk9

To specifically address the shooting. I don't see why we haven't addressed the shooter themselves. Maybe if we look into the "psyche" of what lead up the event then we could address the other issues. I believe that the members of this forum can look beyond what CNN has already addressed.

It seems that a number of shooters felt that they were suppressed in one way or another - being at the bottom of the student body hierarchy. Maybe being bullied for a number of years and not being able to do anything about it. Then find out that dealing with the situation with a firearm levels the playing field. Pent up rage that doesn't have a healthy outlet (to state the obivous). Feeling repressed that the even if you were to fight back a'la fist fight that the school would just punish you as much as the bully and then the bully would just get you at the end anyway. Going home and feeling that if you told your parents you would be labeled as a "Loser" at school. Even if you told your parents - would they care? (They may or may not - but to the students perspective what would it be?). Of course being at the bottom of the hierarchy doesn't necessarly indicate as such but I would be more specific as to not having a support group of friends.

I maybe pointing the obivous but I do feel students perspective needs to be addressed before any movement can be made.

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jubaji

I have never served in the military, but I have every right to discuss military issues and national defense. HOWEVER, if a combat veteran tells me what its like to fight under fire I don't really have the means to contradict him. If he goes further and tries to insist on certain political conclusions based on that experience then we can debate the logic of such conclusions as may be raised. If he says something patently absurd such that any rational person would not believe him, then I should question him. BUT, in terms of his experience of actually functioning under fire, I don't have a lot to say.

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jubaji

Now, if you want to fix the schools just take a look at our system of HIGHER education, which is by far the best in the world. Find out what differences exist between the two 'systems' and you'll have an idea of what might very likely work.

Unfortunately, it would be very unlikely to be politically acceptable to a large portion of the country for reasons good and ill...

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DonKey

"On Combat" by Grossman addresses this issue a bit, I just finished reading this book and it's a great read for anyone who takes their safety seriously.

Ghost

the thing with higher education is that your best unis in the states have limited places so they will always get the cream. And we know there are still plenty of normal and also excellent kids coming up through the system.

It would be interesting to examine, school and social conditions in a period before these school shootings really got started.

Although the schools arent involved now i think they could be and should be due to the amount of time children spend there, they must be formative in the childs behaviour. I would say parenting is the biggest factor.

I understand your point on not telling teachers how it is when we dont do their job. but we are talking about government policies on schools responsibilities. i dont expect individual teachers to try and change this now.
What i think should happen is that the education system should be reformed and that discipline and respect are added in as well as some understanding.
Give teachers powers to enforce discipline and powers to do their jobs the way they need to.
Judging by the UK system, which probably isnt miles apart from the US one, teachers time is spent chasing performance figures that arent attainable because they cant enforce discipline and they cant do anything except stand there and teach.
We have a system where teachers can barely even defend themselves when attacked.
I beleive if you took the next generation into school at the age of 4 and from day 1 started teaching in a way that demanded respect but also was very careful and compassionate about childrens needs then you could go a long way to addressing the failings of parents.
this new generations childrens would likely be better parents as well. in my opinion.

treelizard

I have a mentor whose father retired as an assistant superintendent, and he said he saw education change when women started entering the workforce, so that tells you a lot about how integral of a role parents play.

After a week of substitute teachers so we could get some much-needed training in core curriculum competencies, I returned to a classroom full of zoo animals who were throwing around these humoungous pieces of wadded up paper in class today. I marched every one of the worst culprits (there were six of them) outside so they could call home on my cell phone and explain their behavior. They all came back in the room with shoulders slunked saying things like "my dad said he'll deal with me later" and "I'm grounded for a week." Calling home is like a secret weapon; the one consistent thing I see with students who end up in trouble with the law or in huge trouble with the school is that their parents are either absent or are enablers. I'm not sure what amount of support would help them turn things around if they don't really feel like it.

As far as what teachers should be/are held accountable for, it is different in every state. In mine, it is this:


Standard 1: The teacher designs and plans instruction that develops students’ abilities to meet state academic standards and the district’s
assessment plan.
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher’s planning:
1. Focuses instruction on Arizona’s academic standards
2. Focuses instruction on the school’s and district’s academic standards
3. Aligns curriculum with the student assessments
4. Addresses any physical, mental, social, cultural, and community differences
among learners
5. Addresses prior knowledge of individual and group performance
6. Indicates short and long term curriculum goals
7. Includes appropriate use of a variety of methods, materials, and resources
8. Includes learning experiences that are developmentally appropriate for learners
9. Includes learning experiences that address a variety of cognitive levels
10.Includes learning experiences that are appropriate for curriculum goals
11.Includes learning experiences that are based upon principles of effective
instruction
12.Includes learning experiences that accurately represent content
13.Incorporates appropriate assessment of student progress

Standard 2: The teacher creates and maintains a learning climate that supports the development of students’ abilities to meet Arizona’s academic
standards.
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher:
1. Establishes and maintains standards of mutual respect
2. Displays effective classroom management
3. Encourages the student to demonstrate self-discipline and responsibility to self and others
4. Respects the individual differences among learners
5. Facilitates people working productively and cooperatively with each other
6. Provides a motivating learning environment
7. Promotes appropriate classroom participation
8. Listens thoughtfully and responsively
9. Organizes materials, equipment, and other resources appropriately
10.Applies to daily practice the ethics of the profession

Standard 3: The teacher implements and manages instruction that develops
students’ abilities to meet Arizona’s academic standards
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher:
1. Appropriately implements a teacher-designed lesson plan
2. Communicates to students specific standards and high expectations for learning
3. Links learning with students’ prior knowledge, experiences, and backgrounds
4. Models the skills, concepts, attributes, or thinking processes to be learned
5. Demonstrates effective written and oral communication
6. Uses appropriate language to communicate with learners clearly and accurately
7. Uses strategies that are appropriate to students’ developmental levels
8. Incorporates strategies which address the diverse needs of learners, and
demonstrates multicultural sensitivity
9. Encourages critical thinking
10.Connects lesson content to real life situations when appropriate
11.Uses technology and a variety of instructional resources appropriately
12.Uses a variety of effective teaching strategies to engage students actively in learning
13.Maximizes the amount of class time students are engaged in learning which
results in a high level of success for students
14.Provides opportunities for students to use and practice what is learned
15.Adjusts instruction based on feedback from students

Standard 4: The teacher assesses learning and communicates results to
students, parents and other professionals with respect to students’
abilities to meet Arizona’s academic standards.
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher:
1. Promotes student self-assessment
2. Uses a variety of appropriate formal and informal assessments aligned with
instruction
3. Maintains records of student work and performance and uses them to guide
instructional decisions
4. Offers students and parents appropriate feedback on progress toward learning expectations
5. Maintains privacy of student records and performance

Standard 5: The teacher collaborates with colleagues, parents, the community and other agencies to design, implement, and support learning
programs that develop students’ abilities to meet Arizona’s academic
standards and transition from school to work or post-secondary
education
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher:
1. Works with parents to enhance student learning at home and school
2. Collaborates with other professionals and agencies to improve the overall
learning environment for students
3. Accesses community resources and services to foster student learning
4. Demonstrates productive leadership and team membership skills that facilitate
the development of mutually beneficial goals
5. Collaborates with colleagues to achieve school and district goals

Standard 6: The teacher reviews and evaluates his or her overall performance and implements a professional development plan
The performance assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher:
1. Reviews his or her practices and evaluates the influences of his or her practices on student growth and learning
2. Designs and continually adapts a professional development plan for improving instruction and student learning
3. Engages in activities that implement the professional development plan
4. Uses employer’s documentation of his or her performance to develop a
professional development plan
5. Pursues professional activities to support development as a learner and a
teacher

Standard 7: The teacher has general academic knowledge as demonstrated by the attainment of a bachelor’s degree. The teacher also has specific
academic knowledge in his or her subject area or areas sufficient to
develop student knowledge and performance to meet Arizona
academic standards
The subject knowledge assessment shall measure the extent to which the
teacher has knowledge of:
1. Skills and concepts related to the subject area
a. At the elementary level, the teacher demonstrates knowledge of
language arts and reading, math, science, social studies, and fine arts.
b. At the secondary level, the teacher demonstrates knowledge of the
subject area or areas he or she is being certified to teach.
2. Major facts and assumptions that are central to the discipline
3. Debates and the processes of inquiry that are central to the discipline
4. Integration of disciplinary knowledge with other subject areas
5. Connections between knowledge of the subject area and real life situations at the level of the students being taught

Standard 8: The teacher demonstrates current professional knowledge sufficient to effectively design and plan instruction, implement and manage
instruction, create and maintain an appropriate learning
environment, and assess student learning
The professional knowledge assessment shall measure the extent to
which the teacher has knowledge of:
1. A variety of methods for teaching language arts and reading, math, science,
social studies, and fine arts at the elementary level or a variety of methods for
teaching reading and the subject area or areas in which the teacher is seeking
certification at the secondary level
2. Interdisciplinary learning experiences that integrate knowledge, skills, and
methods of inquiry from several subject areas
3. Principles and techniques associated with various instructional strategies
4. Learning theories, subject matter, curriculum development, and student
development and how to use this knowledge in planning instruction to meet
curriculum goals
5. Methods for recognizing and accommodating exceptional children
6. Influences of individual development, experiences, talents, prior learning,
language, culture, gender, family, and community on student learning
7. Principles of human motivation and behavior and their implications for managing
the classroom and organizing individual and group work
8. Effective evaluation of curriculum materials and resources for accuracy,
comprehensiveness, and usefulness for representing particular ideas and
concepts
9. The characteristics, uses, advantages, and limitations of different types of
assessments for evaluating how students learn, determining what they know and
are able to do, and identifying what experiences will support their further growth
and development
10.Measurement theory, interpretation of test results, and assessment-related
issues, such as validity, reliability, bias, and scoring
11.Services and resources to meet the needs of exceptional children and how to
access the services and resources
12.Schools as organizations within the larger community context and the operations
of the relevant aspects of the educational system
13.Laws and ethics related to student, parent, and teacher rights and responsibilities

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Ghost

oh man thats huge, would it not be easier to have a mission statement kind of thing. treelizard that sounds really good the way you dealt with those kids. i assume you only get them for one year? and then they get passed on.
You seem to have a reasonable level of discipline for your students, are other teacher using these same techniques or are some, or none?

Do you see improvement in your students behaviour over the course of the year with you in your class?

That list is too long and imo is part of the problem. Id rather see a mission statement and then teachers be given intruction on what expected of them and then have their performance reviewed so certain levels of performance and discipline are maintained. would that make more sense?

treelizard

I've only been teaching for just over one quarter and class management is my biggest problem. Their behavior is improving but isn't nearly where I want it to be. It is frustrating to spend six hours putting together really kick ass lesson plans which get lost on my kids because they are too noisy or aren't listening. It is even more frustrating when one class goes great and another doesn't with the exact same plans. I want ALL of my students engaged in everything I am teaching at the same time.

Although my data indicates that there is huge improvement, there are a ton of really fun things that I can't do with some (most) of my classes because of their behavior. For example, today we were working on categorizing and classification because their paragraph organization isn't there. So I had students get in small groups and brainstorm every single thing they could think of on a topic. Then we put those things in categories. We did "music" as a class and the categories were "types of music" and "instruments" and "places music is played," etc. Then at the end of class we wrote paragraphs on just one of the topic. If they can get their entire paragraph to be about just one thing, that would be a HUGE improvement in their drive-by writing.

But I digress! My 5th period class is way behind because it takes me tons of time to get them settled. It is my biggest class (31 students). 6th/7th period class got crayons so they could circle different categories with colors, but my 3rd/4th period block is not yet able to use crayons without them ending up in the ceiling, in pieces on the floor and lobbed across the room nonstop for the entire class period. So they didn't get crayons. I also have a lot of really fun educational games that I can't use in class because my transitions are so noisy and chaotic that I need to keep everyone seated the entire class period. I spend over half of the class trying to get people to stay in their seats. I bought these switch guards because people would turn off the lights and push over desks, throw things, etc.. It's easy to handle when it's just one or two kids, but it's harder to manage the whole class. I am improving because 90% of the time I can tell who is doing what, but it took a long time to get there and like I said my class is still poorly managed. I read a lot of Marzano and spend a ton of time working on this. Some of the strategies my teaching coach has given me have seemed absolutely nuts, but are really effective. So yeah, I spend a lot of time just trying to get students seated and on task and not pushing or throwing things.

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Ghost

yeah i think it comes from lack of discipline of the other teachers on the way up, i cant help but feel treelizard is basically doing all the right things but is being let down by some of the other teachers, though im sure others try hard as she does as well.

I would like to see morning registration start with forming up and some marching and discipline, sounds harsh but i think it works well for high school and up, primary school probably needs all teachers to be forced to demand certain levels of discipline and respect across the board.
I think the key is consistency. the whole school must have the same approach so you dont have 5 soft teachers 1 hardcore and 4 in the middle for instance.

treelizard

It may have been a good way to handle it, but since these issues keep coming up repeatedly and have since I started teaching, I can't say I'm doing everything right or am even close to it. I'm probably doing about a hundred things wrong and I've identified about a dozen of them and am trying to work on just one a week. There are whole volumes of books of research from each angle. And since there are so many strands and potential areas of development that would take even the best teacher years or decades to master, even the most dedicated, hard-working and compassionate teachers could be on varying levels of progress in each area. I know that I'm constantly trying to figure out what ONE thing I could work on for the next day and I focus just as much on lack of engagement as I do on discipline problems.

Between planning lessons, contacting parents, developing a consistent classroom management setup, trying to determine how to differentiate instruction, trying to teach to different learning styles, trying to figure out how to deal with our new paper rationing system, trying to cater to English language learners, trying to determine where everyone is at on a given performance objective without assessing them to death, trying to figure out how to group students for projects, juggling resources, etc. it is just one area of concern for me. There are only so many hours in the day, I am already taxed out from working too much, and in the meantime I'm trying to keep myself strong and healthy (physically and spiritually) so I can be the shining example these kids desperately need. Meanwhile I'm about to start working another job so I can buy things like paper and supplies (the district only provides so much and it ain't enough), I train once a week if I'm lucky, and I see my friends and boyfriends once or twice a week if I'm lucky. Add eating, sleeping and keeping my house organized enough to work in and, well, let's just say I'm not going to beat myself up about it too much when things fall through the cracks as they inevitably will.

I agree that there's a lot that happened to these kids on the way there; I told one of the instructional support guys I work with that I don't feel that the behavioral problems could be the simple result of a bad lesson plan or bad delivery; there's a lot that it took to get them there. He told me not to spend any time thinking about that since they're the kids I have.

Standard 2 is about creating a positive learning environment so that students can learn. It is about making sure directions are given clearly, high standards are maintained, giving feedback for deeper understanding, making sure most students are engaged. I think one could do all this and students could still fall through the cracks anyway. Notice it said 85%. I'm guessing the 15% who are not engaged would include the school shooters.

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Tom Yum

Reminds me of the old UFC's.

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treelizard

I thought these links might be of interest.

Creating A Positive Classroom Climate

Classroom Climate Checklist

How Winning Teachers Use Communication

Teacher Parent Collaboration

Hows and Whys of Effective Parent-Teacher Communication

New Wave of Evidence: Relationships Between Effective Parental Involvement and Student Achievement

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