Katas: Any value for *real* combat? - Page 3

kanik · 12-27-2007, 03:44 AM

You know what? Because of this thread... me thinks that i'ma organise a fight with another one of my friends and make my training mainly consist of forms, patterns and katas. Yeah I am still gonna do exercises like skipping, weights, bodyweights, etc. etc. but thats coz I dont wanna lose those skills by being a dickhead. I'll tell ya'll how it goes and to see if they ARE effective, and I will tell if it worked, or if I scraped through by my previous skill. No better way to answer a problem then finding out through personal experiance ^_^

pizothefirst · 12-27-2007, 04:56 AM

‎... The problem is that KATAS were developed long ago and because they are the basis ‎of a given style or system, have evolved very little, therefore, many of the techniques in ‎traditional KATAS--blocking techniques mostly--have little application. ‎

I think shadow boxing/kicking etc. have better application to actual street combat and in ‎the ring ... Just add those techniques from katas that you think would work ... And you'd ‎have yourself a more applicable kata ...‎

Tant01 · 12-27-2007, 01:54 PM

Shinken Shobu no Kata (Combat Forms) familiarize one with the principles and application of techniques...

KIME-SHIKI (Forms of Decision)
1. Purpose
This exercise aims to properly and strongly build your body by developing the fast and graceful movements of your muscles of the whole body. Further, it considerably assists to improve the skillful and decisive body movements which can be responded to any unexpected emergency without losing any time in accordance with the principle
of attack and defense of the martial arts....

3. Significance
This exercise differs from the ordinary gymnastics which are very useful to evenly develop your whole body, however, are mostly not practised with a keen interest in analyzing the substance of each body movement.
As stated in the above purpose of this exercise, you may acquire the martial arts through your practice of this exercise and accordingly you may improve your spiritual culture. At every time of practising this exercise, therefore, you have to calm your mind and concentrate your mind on every movement by making the most efficient use of your energy.
—177

Any value for "REAL" combat? I say yes.

FitnessRubber · 12-27-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Again, you can't change the point I was making without changing the whole argument. The original point was that kata can add to someone's ability as a fighter. That's all! I never made the point that kata were enough all by themselves, or even that they were the best way to go. It takes the rest of the art, the rest of the training method, to make the fighter. Arts that do kata generally also find time to do partnered drills, to hit pads, to do exercises, and to spar. Those other things also add to the ability of the fighter, but they may not be enough on their own to make someone solid. As a measured piece of a system, however, they can be of some benefit.

That was my point as well. They have some benefit if by some you mean training value. I can't imagine anyone going into the ring to fight and using his katas in the ring as a part of his strategy to win. That's not what katas were designed for. But as a training method they can have some value. Maybe not the best value, but some value.

Quote:

Then katas have some value. It's not an "either, or" argument in that no one has ever said "Which is better: Katas or Other Stuff." It was simply a matter of detemrining whether or not katas can accomplish anything positive for a fighter. Put another way, it's very similar to asking whether a VW Bug from the 1960's has any practical value. Well, it's easy to say it's not the best car out there. It's easy to point out its design flaws. It's easy to list a hundred other cars that are better than a 1960's VW Bug. But does that 1960's VW Bug still go from one place to another? If it does, then it has some practical value even if there are better ways out there to do the same job.

And, to add to that argument, if the VW Bug is all you have access to then its practical value can me imminently more important than the alternative.

Tant01 · 12-27-2007, 03:19 PM

There is an obsure book called "Zen shaolin Karate" that puts the entire
concept of kata into a correct context. I urge people to find and read it.

(Mark Tripp)

kanik · 12-27-2007, 05:21 PM

All very good and valid I must say. I am still gonna try it out, I reckon I have the ability to feel if it has helped me and to see for myself if its worth continuing. But thats a good idea... I should get one of my lazy bum of a friends to train in patterns, forms, and katas and see how he fares. (Note I say patterns, forms, and katas because I am not just talking about karate katas here, but also taiji and gung fu forms and patterns). But yeah like I said at one point previously, Katas and stuf are good if the person keeps an open mind with them and doesnt expect it to work how its tought, but rather work how you make it work in the sence that you learn the techniques off of a kata pattern or form, and through that you will be able to apply the techniques better.

kanik · 12-28-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

How are you going to separate what you've been doing all your life from what you gain by kata training? Just curious. I'm often a little astounded by people who have trained for years, then move on to something different, and they can immediately dismiss one or the other. After all, isn't your previous training going to be a huge factor, since it's the foundation of everything you know and do? I just don't see how you'll be able to separate what's already there and what you get from limited kata practice.

Very easily! I am super-man after all... Nah but seriously, I will know if any of it shows itself, and naturally I will be able to feel the difference. It isnt the first time I have done experiments like this you know? Even if I get it wrong, I aint gonna take it for a fact, just somthing fun to do. I beleive I could see any improvements or decreasing of ability by continually drilling them.

FitnessRubber · 12-28-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanik

Nah but seriously, I will know if any of it shows itself, and naturally I will be able to feel the difference. It isnt the first time I have done experiments like this you know? Even if I get it wrong, I aint gonna take it for a fact, just somthing fun to do. I beleive I could see any improvements or decreasing of ability by continually drilling them.

If any of it does show through, wouldn't the experiment have failed?

kanik · 12-29-2007, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

So kanik, let me get this straight.

Your experiment will be based on the idea that if you stop using methods we've all agreed are better than kata training and focus on doing kata, you'll be able to judge whether they are of any benefit? I'm still not sure how that's going to work. I've never even suggested that kata were the best way to go, so if you stop doing things that we all agree are more effective, wouldn't you see a decrease in skill no matter what? The question isn't whether or not kata practice will make you a good fighter. We all agree it won't. The question was whether or not it had any value to a fighter. Your experiment is lacking both a solid hypothesis and a control. There's no good way to measure your results, because even a sharp decrease in fighting ability doesn't prove anything. You really need to have someone with limited experience do this one.

Ah! You miss the point. I am doing a test mainly for fun, I aint trying to prove anything. I know the other methods are probably more effective, but whoes to say katas, patterns and forms arent just effective if done correctly? I might just be a raving loonatic, wait... I am just a raving loonatic, so no need to listen to me if you dont want to. I am going to practice mainly on kata, patterns and forms I know and I dont know, its not to be my only training, but it will be my bulk, I think it will be a fun experiment, and probably not worthwile... but its not if its worthwhile or not, but rather how fun its gonna be either seeing my training pay-off, or feeling it allow the crap to be beaten out of me ^_^ Either way its all good. Yeah I do need somone to do it with limited experiance, hence the reason I shall get one of my associates to start training like that. He's a pretty good guinnea pig.

bodhisattva · 01-03-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutz

Someone posted on another forum about katas being effective for real combat if the practitioner understood their function. I call BS. Anyone care to debate the finer points of punching air vs getting smacked around and trying to fend off a real attack from a real person?

Here's a snip from his post:

Katas have no value for real combat - or anything else.

correction: Katas have great value for martial arts teachers that need SOMETHING to sell their students since they can't actually teach them to fight.

It takes a lot of people up to 10 years to finally admit that what they purchased was a fraud.

There truly is no "spiritual" benefit to doing kata. There is no fighting benefit, either. It's a dumb way to prepare men to "fight" before marching them into battle to die.

bodhisattva · 01-03-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanik

Ah! You miss the point. I am doing a test mainly for fun, I aint trying to prove anything. I know the other methods are probably more effective, but whoes to say katas, patterns and forms arent just effective if done correctly? I might just be a raving loonatic, wait... I am just a raving loonatic, so no need to listen to me if you dont want to. I am going to practice mainly on kata, patterns and forms I know and I dont know, its not to be my only training, but it will be my bulk, I think it will be a fun experiment, and probably not worthwile... but its not if its worthwhile or not, but rather how fun its gonna be either seeing my training pay-off, or feeling it allow the crap to be beaten out of me ^_^ Either way its all good. Yeah I do need somone to do it with limited experiance, hence the reason I shall get one of my associates to start training like that. He's a pretty good guinnea pig.

And what way is the "effective" way? No one seems to teach the "effective" way. So I'm going to have to assume that no one knows the "effective" way. Likewise, I'm going to train in more efficient methods, rather than goof around with a kata for years trying to find the "effective" way to do it.

FitnessRubber · 01-03-2008, 10:16 PM

lol

my thoughts exactly, Mike.

FitnessRubber · 01-03-2008, 10:17 PM

you know, sometimes the best exercise is a mental exercise.

bodhisattva · 01-04-2008, 10:16 AM

"Narrow Minded" would reference a person who had little experience with the subject at hand, and is unwilling to change his limited view in the face of evidence.

Honestly, neither describes me very well on the subject of Kata/Forms/Hyuengs.

I did craploads of kata. I dedicated myself. For a long time.

I can't see any purpose in them. I want that time back. And I want my money back from the instructors.

If a person tells someone "I'm teaching you Kata, and they will make you a better fighter" then that person is committing fraud.

I feel the two greatest fraudulent industries in our nation are

1) Fast Food restaurants - for selling "food" that isn't at all "food."
2) Traditional Martial Arts Teachers / Self Defense Rape Prevention teachers - for selling a product that will only get their student beat-to-Sunday as "self defense"

And I do, really really really, want my money back from both institutions.

And Mike, it's nice of you to make such a long, thoughtful post - but the things you are comparing to Kata are not kata at all - very very different exercises from kata.

Notice, after each "Hmmm." you describe an exercise that involves a) a partner andb) a technique that is actually useful in real fighting. Kata has neither - even 2 partner katas don't typically use useful fighting techniques. Judo is often an exception, but even its fighting practitioners think little of the Kata.

When we hit the pads, we don't hit in "patterns" but we do hit with "combinations." Which are very different from dead patterns. Likewise, the trainer smacks us in the head with the pads when we drop our guard, simulates single-leg shots so we can sprawl, simulates a "charger" - etc. etc. That's also REALLY REALLY different from Kata / Forms / Hyeung.

And, so you know, at our gym our students do start out working with compliant/helpful training partners, but before the end of class that very night they are working the technique against resistance.

And that kind of training makes kata utterly useless.

I even like shadowboxing. But, unlike kata, shadowboxing:

1) is comprised of movements/techniques/footwork that actually are used in fighting
2) is not a dead pattern at all
3) actually makes me sweat and warm up - even kata "engineered" to do that were pretty lame in my experience.

Mental exericise: (I assume you mean visualization? is that what you call "mental exercise"?) Always useful in any endeavor - but I'd never replace real workouts with real partners with "mental exercise" unless I was injured and couldn't workout.

I can't ever imagine leading people to "mental exercises" and "kata" as a strong means of learning to fight a larger, resisting opponent.

KirkhamsEbooks. · 01-04-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodhisattva

And what way is the "effective" way? No one seems to teach the "effective" way. So I'm going to have to assume that no one knows the "effective" way. Likewise, I'm going to train in more efficient methods, rather than goof around with a kata for years trying to find the "effective" way to do it.

The US Military seems to teach "Martial" Arts quite effectively

Rick

12-27-2007, 01:54 PM	#33 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 4,915	Not to mention historical interest... Shinken Shobu no Kata (Combat Forms) familiarize one with the principles and application of techniques... KIME-SHIKI (Forms of Decision) 1. Purpose This exercise aims to properly and strongly build your body by developing the fast and graceful movements of your muscles of the whole body. Further, it considerably assists to improve the skillful and decisive body movements which can be responded to any unexpected emergency without losing any time in accordance with the principle of attack and defense of the martial arts.... 3. Significance This exercise differs from the ordinary gymnastics which are very useful to evenly develop your whole body, however, are mostly not practised with a keen interest in analyzing the substance of each body movement. As stated in the above purpose of this exercise, you may acquire the martial arts through your practice of this exercise and accordingly you may improve your spiritual culture. At every time of practising this exercise, therefore, you have to calm your mind and concentrate your mind on every movement by making the most efficient use of your energy. —177 Any value for "REAL" combat? I say yes. __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

12-27-2007, 03:19 PM	#35 (permalink)
Tant01 Humble Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Ca. USA Posts: 4,915	There is an obsure book called "Zen shaolin Karate" that puts the entire concept of kata into a correct context. I urge people to find and read it. (Mark Tripp) __________________ "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur." James Paterson

01-04-2008, 10:16 AM	#44 (permalink)
bodhisattva Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: nowhere Posts: 583	"Narrow Minded" would reference a person who had little experience with the subject at hand, and is unwilling to change his limited view in the face of evidence. Honestly, neither describes me very well on the subject of Kata/Forms/Hyuengs. I did craploads of kata. I dedicated myself. For a long time. I can't see any purpose in them. I want that time back. And I want my money back from the instructors. If a person tells someone "I'm teaching you Kata, and they will make you a better fighter" then that person is committing fraud. I feel the two greatest fraudulent industries in our nation are 1) Fast Food restaurants - for selling "food" that isn't at all "food." 2) Traditional Martial Arts Teachers / Self Defense Rape Prevention teachers - for selling a product that will only get their student beat-to-Sunday as "self defense" And I do, really really really, want my money back from both institutions. And Mike, it's nice of you to make such a long, thoughtful post - but the things you are comparing to Kata are not kata at all - very very different exercises from kata. Notice, after each "Hmmm." you describe an exercise that involves a) a partner andb) a technique that is actually useful in real fighting. Kata has neither - even 2 partner katas don't typically use useful fighting techniques. Judo is often an exception, but even its fighting practitioners think little of the Kata. When we hit the pads, we don't hit in "patterns" but we do hit with "combinations." Which are very different from dead patterns. Likewise, the trainer smacks us in the head with the pads when we drop our guard, simulates single-leg shots so we can sprawl, simulates a "charger" - etc. etc. That's also REALLY REALLY different from Kata / Forms / Hyeung. And, so you know, at our gym our students do start out working with compliant/helpful training partners, but before the end of class that very night they are working the technique against resistance. And that kind of training makes kata utterly useless. I even like shadowboxing. But, unlike kata, shadowboxing: 1) is comprised of movements/techniques/footwork that actually are used in fighting 2) is not a dead pattern at all 3) actually makes me sweat and warm up - even kata "engineered" to do that were pretty lame in my experience. Mental exericise: (I assume you mean visualization? is that what you call "mental exercise"?) Always useful in any endeavor - but I'd never replace real workouts with real partners with "mental exercise" unless I was injured and couldn't workout. I can't ever imagine leading people to "mental exercises" and "kata" as a strong means of learning to fight a larger, resisting opponent. __________________ St. Louis MMA Training Club - MMA Boxing / Clinch / Submission Grappling / Wrestling Gym Portland MMA Training Club: MMA Boxing / Brazilian Jiu Jitsu / Greco Roman Wrestling

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12-27-2007, 03:44 AM	#31 (permalink)
kanik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 239	You know what? Because of this thread... me thinks that i'ma organise a fight with another one of my friends and make my training mainly consist of forms, patterns and katas. Yeah I am still gonna do exercises like skipping, weights, bodyweights, etc. etc. but thats coz I dont wanna lose those skills by being a dickhead. I'll tell ya'll how it goes and to see if they ARE effective, and I will tell if it worked, or if I scraped through by my previous skill. No better way to answer a problem then finding out through personal experiance ^_^

12-27-2007, 04:56 AM	#32 (permalink)
pizothefirst Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2	‎... The problem is that KATAS were developed long ago and because they are the basis ‎of a given style or system, have evolved very little, therefore, many of the techniques in ‎traditional KATAS--blocking techniques mostly--have little application. ‎ I think shadow boxing/kicking etc. have better application to actual street combat and in ‎the ring ... Just add those techniques from katas that you think would work ... And you'd ‎have yourself a more applicable kata ...‎

12-27-2007, 05:21 PM	#36 (permalink)
kanik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 239	All very good and valid I must say. I am still gonna try it out, I reckon I have the ability to feel if it has helped me and to see for myself if its worth continuing. But thats a good idea... I should get one of my lazy bum of a friends to train in patterns, forms, and katas and see how he fares. (Note I say patterns, forms, and katas because I am not just talking about karate katas here, but also taiji and gung fu forms and patterns). But yeah like I said at one point previously, Katas and stuf are good if the person keeps an open mind with them and doesnt expect it to work how its tought, but rather work how you make it work in the sence that you learn the techniques off of a kata pattern or form, and through that you will be able to apply the techniques better.

01-03-2008, 10:16 PM	#42 (permalink)
FitnessRubber Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 98	lol my thoughts exactly, Mike.

01-03-2008, 10:17 PM	#43 (permalink)
FitnessRubber Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 98	you know, sometimes the best exercise is a mental exercise.

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