Mike Brewer

I want to make a distinction between "martial art" and "fighting" in this thread. For the sake of keeping things geared toward strictly fighting, let's run a thread that deals with the kinds of things people can expect in the street. Doesn't matter where it comes from, and it doesn't matter what style it belongs to. This thread should be one that deals strictly with kicking ass.

First, I'll start by eliminating some preconceptions.

Conditioning. It's important to be conditioned to pain, but if you're doing it right, endurance is not necessarily a streetfighting "must have." Fights are generally over very quickly, and they are largely anaerobic in nature. Especially if you're doing it right. Train to have endurance if you like, but if you're given the choice between training to be suddenly and unexpectedly violent or training for long-term endurance, train the former.

Weapons are always a factor. They may not always get used, but they are always a factor. Be aware of the weapons that you can get ahold of, as well as those the bad guy(s) can get ahold of. USe them without hesitation when you must.

The best fights are not reactive affairs. You should not be reacting if your self-defense training is working. You should be able to spot trouble, identify danger areas and people, and narrow down the list or probable outcomes to a managable level. As a bouncer, we often took pride in being able to identify who someone came in with, what people in the bar he might know, where he was likely to hang out, and who he was likely to start up with if something was going to happen. If we did it right, we already had people in the suspicious areas watching all the right people. More often than not, the fight never happened. When it did, it was exceedingly short because we were prepared. The same is true for your personal life.

Likewise, if you've made preparations and are not in a reactive state of mind, act first if you know the line's been crossed. If you have defined the "trigger points" in advance and someone crosses them, don't wait. Attack, be first, and be meaner than he expects you to be. Get there before him with more than he's equipped to deal with and you'll win a lot more often than you lose.

Know when it's serious and when it's a scuffle. Train seriously for the real deal, but recognize when it's not life and death. People like to talk all kinds of shit about not fighting unless its life and death, but sometimes you just don't have a choice. Don't treat the little stuff the same way you treat the big stuff.

The goal is to get home at the end of the day. That means getting home, not getting to court or to a holding cell. Make legality part of your training and dismiss all Rambo ideas of just laying waste to all the bad guys and getting off the hook. If you're not preparing for your own legal defense, you're not preparing to defend yourself.

In terms of techniques, prepare yourself for surviving the sucker punch. if you folloow the advice above, you'll see most fights coming. In those other instances where it sneaks up on you, you don't stand much chance if the guy lands an effective sucker punch. One of the best methods for dealing with a sucker punch is to put your hands together like you're praying, put them up around your hairline, duck down into your shoulders nice and tight, and dive right into the guy. When you make contact, get ahold of him and resort to the whole more, meaner, sooner thing. Above all, though, you have to survive the first shot.

Put aside any distaste or repugnance of firearms and knives. They work. They offer the ability to defend against an assailant with better economy of effort and greater effectiveness than any other method presently available to your average citizen. If you doubt that, ask yourself if you'd be scared by a 12 year-old wannabe gang banger pointing a gun at you. Of course you would. Because even a twelve year old wannabe can kill you stone dead if he pulls a trigger and sends a bullet into your body. It doesn't even matter if he's sick, tired, hurt, or untrained. He can still kill you. Refusing to accept that as a reality is ignorant in the extreme.

Make no bones about lying, deceiving, and faking your way to a win. Apologize to the guy when he confronts you. Admit that he scares you and tell him you don't want your ass kicked. Make a big deal over the fact that he is a big tough guy and you're no fighter. Apologize profusely, and offer to pay for his drinks. Let everyone see you kow towing. Then, ambush the motherfucker in the bathroom while he's taking a piss.

Work out your communication with your own party ahead of time. The people who hang out with you should know when you're about to fight, when you're about to bail, and which way you intend to go. They should know when to get in the fight, and they should know when to clear your lane of fire. This goes for wives and kids, too. You don't want to spend a lot of time worrying about where they are in a fight.

Any other suggestions for the Urban Combat-minded students here?

kanik

Allright, so what exactly are you asking? PLease simplify for us bogans who have trouble reading.

Mike Brewer

I'd like to build up this thread with tips for real fighting. Please add your own ideas, experiences, and general knowledge for the benefit of all.

Nothing fancy.

Michael Wright

That’s a pretty tough thread to follow on from Mike in terms of ideas and suggestions because you have covered so much ground. I guess I only have a few thoughts to throw into the pot, some of them may overlap on concepts you have already put forward:


1. Once it has turned physical, do you actually understand what you are trying to achieve, or are you just throwing techniques? If you look at a physical altercation you can break potential results down into a few areas:

a. Control and Restrain the opponent
b. Render them unconscious
c. Inflict enough damage to make them unwilling to continue
d. Inflict enough damage to make them unable to continue
e. Lethal force

Sure, there are probably grey areas in between those, but my point is this: You should know in your mind what it is you are trying to achieve, how are you going to stop this threat? From my experience, if you don't know this you can do too little or go too far, both have serious repercussions.

2. Its not always just about you. Everyone tends to imagine a street fight just in terms of their ass being on the line. Certainly here in the UK, groups of guys have a habit of starting shit when you are with your girlfriend, your wife, your parents, your children. They know this puts you in a weaker position, and they also know it gives them greater collateral to antagonise you. How are you going to get not only you, but your loved ones away from the threat? You can’t go charging in all guns blazing and leave your kids in the pram for the others to turn their attention to. Its one thing I don’t see much of in people’s training and I always try to stress – its not just about you.

3. I guess as a final point from me, sometimes people place far too much emphasis and faith on martial arts, and not enough on themselves as a person. I believe, and always teach, that to succeed in a violent situation you need five things:

Skill
Courage
Intelligence
Conditioning
Luck

The goal of a good teacher is to provide the skill and demand the conditioning. Outside of that, it comes down to the man or woman at that moment in their life.

Mike Brewer

Great tips, Michael! That's what I'm talking about. A thread full of ideas like that will help a lot of people!

Knuckles&Knees

Watch out for the "fish hook" in the mouth. It hurts like all h*ll trust me.

treelizard

I guess the biggest things I've learned that haven't been mentioned yet are:

1. You don't necessarily need to know a ton of techniques. In fact, too many techniques without enough training will assure that you won't know what the hell to do in a fight.

2. Don't carry it and don't take it out if you're not prepared to use it.

3. Train the startle-flinch response.

4. Don't be afraid to cross the street, not go to that bar, or whatever it takes to prevent a situation.

5. Confidence and body language is more important than training...but you probably need the training to back it up.

6. Decide ahead of time what your ultimate aim is--kind of like what Michael Wright said but overall instead of individual situation... Like for example, I know that my ultimate goal is getting home safely at the end of the day, and realize what the range is but will only go to extremes absolutely necessary to accomplish my goal. But some of the guys I know have other goals like causing as much damage as possible to the bad guy or protecting innocent bystanders or whatnot. Your goals will effect your choices...when you go in and when you walk away.

7. Having a cell phone and looking where I'm going are probably more effective than any technique or course or weapon are...imo.

8. Don't train in places that give you the creeps, no matter how good the art is. Don't train with people that talk too much shit... Pretty obvious stuff.

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Mike Brewer

As a post script to your last point, I've found that the people who spend the most time and effort trying to look tough usually aren't.

I keep trying to rep you, but I'm having to do an inordinate amount of spreading lately.

kanik

Haha! Dont block with your face!

But seriously... dont, it hurts.

Knuckles&Knees

You and Michael proposed some very interesting thoughts regarding knowledge of goals ahead of time. I think I always understood this so to speak and that people can enter altercations with different goals already pre-intended. But I never actually formulated a coherent, short, analysis of this the way you and Micheal have (I'm not sure most people do).

To be honest, my goals, with age and various reasons, have become more violent (meaning maiming) with respect to certain groups. Having encountered the corrupt (me included in that) in this world I am more sympathetic to the "saints" of this world. Of course settings and situations can *often* (not always) be avoided, and hence one can act in a preventative manner. But given a particular setting and situation even a dialect or what to some are to extensive of a vocabulary can invite trouble. It is that point and time - if pressed - with certain kinds of people my goals become quite simple: Blood & Screams.

Michael, is this a cultural trait in the UK (I mean as opposed to other countries).

If so, I have to say, that is an excellent tactic for the bad guys but I would think that can make walking around with your girlfriend or wife kind of an intimidating idea for the so called "average Joe."

Come to think of it... that's just down right mean.

This is interesting because it reminds me of of something I've said once or twice in the past : That a 13 year old farm girl in a closet with a shot gun can kill an adult John Gatti.

People tend to think certain kinds of people are invincible. In reality however death and or murder can be issued out by anyone including children from the most innocent backgrounds. In some ways life is very fragile - and I don't care how notorious you are. Knowledge of this kind of humbles one toward their own mortality.

Anyways... not trying to direct this thread off track... I was just moved to make some responses to some of the things stated.

Michael Wright

I doubt this is specific to the UK, but with the exception of some periods in the States I have lived here all my life, so can only comment on my own experiences. It is certainly very effective for the bad guys.

The first real beating I took was at 16, when I met my girlfriend from work and three guys came up to us and started saying all kinds of things to my girlfriend to provoke me. Being young and dumb I reacted, and was on the floor quicker than you can say head stamp. My girlfriend took some bad hits trying to protect me, and I went to Casualty. 3 on 1 is a nightmare when its just you, 3 on 1 when you are trying to protect you and someone else is so much worse. Cowardly shit-for-soul cocksuckers who prey on good people know this, and exploit it to the full.

Many years ago a friend of mine who is both physically and mentally handicapped was followed home by a group of guys when he was with his wife. They beat him into a hospital bed, his wife was badly injured too, trying to protect him. They did this for no particular reason, they did it for something to do. They did it, because they are fucking scum.

It is experiences like this that help me with my approach to self-protection, my motivation to train, and my ability to do what I need to do if anyone tries to harm me or someone I know. I understand that martial arts shouldn't be motivated by negative emotion, but I also understand the real world and that scum who do this kind deserve fuuck all compassion, they just deserve to be on the receiving end of everything I've got.

eXcessiveForce

1. If it's worth doing it's worth committing too. Too many people when faced with a defense situation throw something tentatively right off the bat. "feeling out is mostly for the ring" if it's worth throwing an attack at someone, then make it a solid attack.

2. the more you block the more you get hit. Try to stay offensive or at least in an offensive state of mind even if you are forced to defend. You aren't going to end the situation blocking at least not in a way that's good for you.

3. In or out. Either get in range and do something or get the hell out and stay out. People get hit because they stand in range and don't do anything.

4. Talk is cheap, but it's also a great time to hit someone. Don't waste time running your mouth. but if the other guy is running his it could be the knockout your looking for.

5. Everything is a weapon including other people. Use the environment to your advantage.

6. Saying "why the hell did you hit me" before hitting the guy will have people telling the police the other guy started it even when he didn't.

7. Do you really care what the idiot standing across from you thinks of you? Don't get baited into something.

8. Train for your nightmare altercation. Then everything else seems easy.

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If you must use force, make it excessive.

Mike Brewer

Likewise, letting everyone in the place know that you're scared to death by exclaiming in a loud voice, "Please, stop hurting me! You're scaring me! Please!" will give the witnesses something else to back you up with.

"What did the defendant say at the time of the attack?"

"Your honor, he just kept saying he was afraid and begging the other guy to stop hitting him."

Garland

...this is probably the best thread I've read on this forum. What a goldmine!

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bodhisattva

Tips for real fighting: Don't.

Stay in the gym. Workout. Go home. Relax.

I'm 33. I haven't been in a fight in over 12 years, primarily because I don't have much need to go where fights and trouble happen.

When I can see trouble is starting, which is rare, I typically find something more interesting to do.

I like to box, and I train MMA boxing "for the street" when I box. But, HONESTLY, I cannot imagine that I will EVER end up in another "streetfight" again in my life. Likewise, when I train Clinch or Ground, it's in a fashion that will serve for "real self defense." But REALLY, when is THAT ever going to happen?

It's not like I'm a coward, or unrealistic, or innocent, or naive. I've just learned, in my short 33 years, that fights are situations that can quickly force you to make a decision to either 1) go to jail or 2) go to the hospital. Entering into a possible life-or-death struggle with someone with the notion that I am going to dominate them and shame them by "submitting" them is stupid.

Once that struggle starts, it's very likely that one of us is going to jail, and one of us going to the hospital. And maybe both of us go to the jail and the hospital.

And Why? Because he's a big mouth?

As far as the other kind of confrontation - the kind where people attack me 3 on 1, or someone hides in my closet, waits til I'm taking a crap, and comes out and kills me - I don't know - can you really prepare for such a thing? Can you really prepare for everything that might come at you? Isn't the best preparation good solid fundamentals and high awareness/avoidance?

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