Michael Wright

No issue with most of that Garland. However I personally don't teach any civillian the weapons arts from a reference point of wounding or harming anyone. I just use it as games and drills to enhance attributes, have fun and take a break from being punched in the face.

Whenever I teach the knife to a group of everyday people I always stress that its just a training tool to have some fun with. I say don't ask me any questions about "well would I stab him here or stab him there" because I don't want to know....and if you want to know, I want to know why you want to know.

A guy emailed me just the other week and wrote "For years I have wanted to learn how to use a knife in a fight". I replied "Then you have some issues my friend, go train with someone else".

Knife Defence is a different story. I have a knife defence program that I teach to the Police and many civillians, and it doesn't rely on knowledge of severed arteries and bleed timetables, its all too late by then anyway.

Garland I'm not dismissing the need to look into the implications of your art in detail, I applaud that. And I don't want to be hypocrite beause I teach knife to the Armed Forces, and some of the stuff I teach is very unpleasant. I guess the reason I write what I do is because for years and years now I have been surrounded by people in martial arts who live in a fantasy world about the knife, and pass those fantasies onto their students. I will be up front and say that I don't like Sayoc. They have made a hugely successful industry of teaching anyone who rolls up at their door some pretty horrific concepts and methods. Their system is pretty much based around the ability to take a life with a blade, that just doesn't sit well with me. You want to talk about being irresponsible, you should see some of the shit taught in this country about "knife fighting" and how many instructors actively encourage students to carry knives (illegally).

If people had ever seen a knife fight, or faced a knife, or watched someone die from a knife - they would want nothing to do with it.

Michael Wright

As ever Mike, a fair and honest post. Just a couple of clarifications:

I love the knife: as my play time, as a game, as a fun part of Kali. But yes like you, I don't love the serious side of knife, and only choose to train in and teach it because I hope it serves a purpose to a small portion of people who really need it.

I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to explore Sayoc and had your mind opened by what sounds like some good people in the Sayoc family. As ever, my opinions are based on my own experiences, both first hand and from a distance. I believe it to be, on the whole, a pretty negative mindset for an average person to become absorbed with. But maybe thats just my belief system. On a more neutral note, my concerns over the Sayoc system have been compounded by some work I have done with the Security Services here in the UK, which showed some disturbing evidence about their choice of client. But that is perhaps one for a personal discussion.

I'm conscious that I have hijacked Garland's request for information and research with my own personal opinions, so I will bow out and let things get back on track.

Tant01

You know.... you can't spell slaughter without laughter... as sanguinary as it may be.

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Garland

At this point I think that the initial topic has evolved into something much more pertinent and pressing, and therefore I encourage everyone to continue in this line as opposed to what I first sought.

As somebody who has seen a knife used on another person, and as somebody who has had weapons used against them (I know many of the people on this board may have as well) I certainly understand the sentiments and arguments provided by both of the Mikes and other members here.

(I also am aware that the Sayocs also keep military applications and stuff for LEOs seperate from their regular curriculum...and have "instructor only" based things to try and maintain the moral high road on the use of the knife.)

I agree with the vast majority of what everyone has said, but I also have a simple disagreement with the antithesis that appears to be universal among the more seasoned people on this board. Before I state what that is, I want something to be noted and emphasized: as a civilian, and as a young man, I especially understand WHY teaching some things could prove to be ethically unadvisable. peroid. I would like to believe that I am responsible enough and controlled enough to learn this type of information...but I know from mistakes in the past that drawing a knife is serious business, and generally has only one driving thought behind it...if you draw a knife, you intend to use it. It is not a weapon, once drawn, that is a peacemaking deterrent. I have drawn a knife in self defense...I ended up threatening the people who were pressing forward with it, and they didn't desist...

I did the smart thing (after the stupid thing)...I found a way to run away.

I also understand the myths surrounding the knife, and especially "knife fighting". The two stabbings I've witnessed weren't fights. One was a walk, stab, walk away, and the other was a drunken argument that got heated, one individual walked away, picked up a knife, came back and stabbed the other person, and then called the police from my phone (that was fun...the cops showed up en masse and held guns on everybody in the apartment complex, and I had to sneak my phone away from the guy as he was being cuffed and casually walk away from the peace officers...no good deed...)

DESPITE all of this...I believe knowing what a knife is capable of should impart one thing above all else- respect. I remember vividly a training partner of mine, a fairly seasoned one at that, coming back from a Leo Gaje seminar not wanting to do knife training anymore. It was so straight forward that all of the stuff that was taught to him previously came into stark focus and he began to understand.

The benefits I see of learning the knife (which my instructor watered down as well for the same reasons listed by everyone else) are; respect for the blade, respect for other people, a complete understanding of the art.

Still...there will always be people who are irresponsible or malicious. Still...you never know who these people are- as Ajarn Chai is prone to saying- (I'm paraphrazing) "be weary of the quiet ones, and the respectful ones." The only way to know for sure is to put it out there...it is a test of moral character. But not every bjj guy is choking out people on the street, and not every muay thai guy is breaking the legs of people they argue with. I often hear the argument that a weapon makes it easier- a sense of confidence and bravado that almost enables the carrier to get into dangerous altercations.

I think it's the whole martial mentality at its fledgling stages that is dangerous... how many of those serious fights (outside of your occupations) that you guys had were during that peroid? How many more times were when you were carrying a weapon?

It's the superman syndrome.
I went through it. It's a way of dealing with fear. A maladaptive coping mechanism that breeds all of the problems with martial art related violence. I guarantee you, the statistics behind the frequency of a normal control group and martial artists in fights would be quite telling.

I want to learn the knife because I want a deeper understanding of everything that comes with it.

I may be flip-flopping here, pardon it, but I'm just bouncing off ideas right now.

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homo homini lupus

Tant01

Meyhem and death. Trauma and scars. Blood and guts.

Move on to a gun, neat little hole, less mess on you...In some cases much faster and more "humane". Also has a much greater range than a knife...

Many folks make the mistake of thinking of the limitations of a hand gun or that it requires little skill. Personally I think shooting is no less an art than any thing else...

It's proven it's value over the sword in the last 5-6 hundred years...

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Garland

I agree...which is also why I asked for opinions on good books and guides for beginners...and I asked whether Gabe Suarez and Massad Ayoob were the two top guys or if I should look elsewhere as well...

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homo homini lupus

Tant01

Hmmm.... Mr. Ayoob is no doubt a leading authority on the use of force. I'm sure Mr. Suarez is a most qualified instructor as well.

I have never had personal experience with either man but I hesitate to say any one or two are THE TOP GUYS. They may well be in the top ten or twenty? You know? They may be leaders in the industry and very good at what they do but until they start shooting each other who's to say who is "best" LOL

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Garland

Definitely taking what I said out of context. Although the wild west idea sounds interesting...it's probably as logical as a straight up knife fight. I'm actually all for bringing back the duel to settle disputes...but about the only thing I'd win at would be muching down Thai chilis and drinking beer.

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homo homini lupus

Tant01

And Mario Kart! (I remember!)

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

Garland

...you know me all too well.

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homo homini lupus

Tant01

If I could be so bold as to suggest another tactical gun course I'd recommend my e-buddy Peyton (Quinn) at RMCAT. He's in Colorado last I heard...

You'd learn some good (old school) stuff including but not limited to driving around his rancho and hitting targets from a moving vehicle! Fun AND educational!

Like Mario Kart with an uzi...

LOL

__________________

"In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

James Paterson

smiling-ninja

if you want to learn knife techniques take a look into Ninjitsu. The striking techniques show you to hit vital targets. You can also learn disarming techniques and other knife related fun.



regards,
Damien.
Errant Knight Jewellery Pendants