i need help please - Page 2

**Hardball** · 05-12-2008, 12:38 PM

Not being able to own a gun sucks. U.K. and Australia laws suck big time.

Mike Brewer · 05-12-2008, 01:13 PM

I spoke with a more rational, more mature friend of mine about this and he had some really good advice. I thought I owed it to you to put up a serious response, so here goes (from the mind and mouth of someone a whole bunch more rational than I):

You've made some pretty serious mistakes in allowing these guys to intimidate and threaten you. You've put yourself in a serious position of weakness, and the fact that you didn't go to the police or sue them for every penny they have after they broke your jaw means you've set youself up as just about the most perfect vicitim ever. There's really no coming back from that.

You work at a bar. That means you're not talking about a make-or-break career. The only other real solution apart from violent, probably criminal, action is distance. Quit. Go find another job somewhere else. It's a bar in Australia, and so a replacement should not be difficult to come by. And after you've done that, make sure you don't start off on the same foot. Don't take threats without responding legally. Don't take beatings without pressing charges. In short, don't make losing a habit. Next time around, face the threats head on from the outset and be willing to take and give your lumps. In a nutshell, you gotta be like a procupine. No one will ever accuse a porcupine of being the toughest critter in the woods, but nothing screws with it because it's just too much of a hassle. You may not win, but you can sure make it so that the consequences of picking on you are more "quill" than anyone's willing to deal with.

DJColdfusion · 05-12-2008, 02:23 PM

#1: Don’t train because you are afraid of somebody knocking you around. If there is a specific person or a group of specific individuals who are threatening you then you MUST contact your local police about it. If they are bugging you at the bar you work at then talk to management and get them to ban the people causing the problem.

#2: Continuing with #1, Train because you love to train and the ability to defend yourself will come. Train out of love for the art not fear of a person.

#3: Mike Brewer kicked me back in 1999 and it still hurts.

**Hardball** · 05-12-2008, 02:39 PM

Yea he is in a precarious position because the bad guys have a code. "Snitches get Stitches" Going to the police is no guarentee of a successful outcome. Bad Guys respect you when you stand up for yourself. The problem is, it sounds like you need a weapon and the law is not in your favor.

Quitting (evasion) like Mike B suggested sounds like the best option right now.

Michael Wright · 05-12-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion

Train because you love to train and the ability to defend yourself will come. Train out of love for the art not fear of a person.

That's the best thing I have read on this forum.

Tom Yum · 05-12-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I've always believed that we train at the intensity of the junior partner, and so I always let the other guy take the lead. If they are trying to show off or hurt me, I will not trust them to work with my students. If they really try to hurt me, I'll defend myself. If they're trying to be bullies about it, I'll hurt them and throw them out on the sidewalk while they're still unconscious. I just never developed any tolerance for that kind of shit.

As for the mental aspect, you see it all over the place. It's usually the overly sensitive types that take offense at the littlest thing and then fire back with asymetric intensity. You say something that someone takes the wrong way, and all of a sudden, the guy wants to "Kill you, motherfucker!" The threats and posturing and intimidation are probes. The intention is to see whether or not you'll fold, because if you fold to that kind of intimidation, you'll be a more willing victim. It only goes up from there. It's like when you apologize to someone for a misunderstanding and all they want to do is get meaner and nastier? They weren't offended at all. They were looking for a reason to screw with you, and that kind of posturing is their way of justifiying dickish behavior. All you can do is recognize the behavior for whta it is and act accordingly - which is to say don't entertain stupidity, and don't belittle yourself by making concessions to a bully. Just knock the shit out of them (figuratively or literally) and move on.

Good stuff, Mike.

In general, I've found alot of cool people in the martial arts community - and I mean lenient and cool headed. Usually not ones to initially respond to shit talking, instigation and other tactics, but when they do, these kinds of things rarely happen again.

Garland · 05-25-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Of course, there's always the possibility that you want to take things up a notch. That's where the second suggestion comes in. Juice one of them with the Visine and make sure he goes to the bathroom alone. Follow him in there, and when he's busy puking out his lungs, mash him in the head with something heavy. If you knock him out, make sure to leave him laying on his side so he doesn't die.

It's barbaric and pretty illegal in most places, but it's one of the better ways I know of to ambush.

All of the above is strictly for information purposes, and was designed to show you how silly fighting of this type is.

Another gem from Prof. Pain.

This entry has to go in your book, bro....

TechRon · 05-26-2008, 12:36 AM

"No-name," I don't know what kind of instructors you're meeting but I'm in NY and I went to Krav Maga specifically because of legal issues. I don't want to get into it but my instructor has gone above and beyond the call of duty for me. He trains law enforcement officers as well so he's dead serious about survival.

I specifically chose Krav Maga because I didn't want to be forced to bow to pictures of people's dead ancestors or masters, or have to hear varying philosophies from chairs and tables having souls to why the world was meant to spin in the opposite direction. I just needed to protect myself fast and hard. I needed serious help and I didn't have time to give years to obtain that.

Yeah, you're going to have to fight "dirty" if that's what people want to call protecting your basic human right to life. The tactics described in previous posts sound pretty reasonable to me. When someone approaches you, you have no idea whether they are trying to harm you or kill you. Do whatever you have to in order to protect yourself. Real simple.

About running away and leaving your woman behind... I hope since your last post they've left you with a better impression. Okay, one of the things I have to deal with is that I have to protect a few other individuals. From the start, I was taught how to maneuver an attacker in order to (1) keep him subdued and under my control, (2) keep an eye on anyone else around, and (3) how to get to that position in numerous ways. And he can even teach me to work that in more ways if need be. Remember, Krav Maga is also about being able to adapt - staying sharp, staying aware of this ever-changing world.

About dealing with kickboxers...we use plenty of kicks in Krav Maga. At least my instructor does. He also drills us 'til we drop. So the cardio work is there.

About not wanting to get hurt...I've been hurt bad. I really can't afford another injury. But my instructor works with my risk level so there's no shortage of moves in my case. Like others said, you may not be able to avoid getting hurt but you can lower the risk drastically, and you train to avoid your most vulnerable spots. In Krav Maga, there's also a focus on being aware at all times. I get stress tests where I'm being hit blindfolded or have to respond only when I hear certain sounds.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I'll do my best to help even though I think everyone else has done a great job in answering so far. I just hope that the people you're dealing with do right by you.

I train in NY at Davide's Yorktown Total Fitness. I don't remember right now but maybe his website talks about what Krav Maga is supposed to be. Davide himself is my teacher. Even in NYC, finding the right Krav Maga school wasn't easy. I didn't want to deal with just anybody. Anyhow, I wish you the best, man. Be safe. Do whatever it takes.

Garland · 05-27-2008, 02:02 AM

JUST WANTED TO INFORM:

after consulting with a few veteran bartenders I know...the visine trick apparently worked so well that the company that produces the eye drops no longer uses that "active"

ingredient in their product. So...find another means.

ltindiandaeng · 06-01-2008, 03:38 AM

I was in a similar situation years ago.I was working in a bar and had to throw some guys out for fighting.Actually I was one of several bouncers there as it was a big bar.On the way home that night I was surrounded by these same 6 guys.I know I would have gotten my butt kicked or worse if I tried to fight all 6 guys,so I said to their "leader',something to the effect of he must be a gutless punk to need 6 guys to beat 1,especially since he was bigger than me himself.I guess he didn't want to lose face so he said he would fight me himself and he got the short end,so he told his gang to help him and they just stood there.I don't think they were afraid,I just think they wanted this guy to back up his big talk. Anyway cops showed up then and whole thing ended.I used to see all these guys often after the incident,including the guy I had fight with,and never another problem.
Point is maybe if you get cauhgt alone by these punks if you call out their leader,maybe at least you will only have to fight one guy instead of a gang.On the other hand maybenot,and the fact is it will take a whole lot of training before you are ready to take on multiple opponents,whether kickboxrs or not.The best advice you already have gotten from other people. Call the cops and take them to court.Carry a weapon of some kind,as long as it is legal.try to avoid getting caught alone on the street.Good luck

One other thought:if these Serbian guys are in your country illegally,maybe if you have them arrested they will be deported.

GQchris · 06-01-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

Since I'm not the type that thinks we should let things go entirely and trust in fate or God to punish evildoers, there are a few things I tend to recognize as "my jurisdiction." I think God put us all here with out own sets of skills and tools and abilities, and one of my skill sets is the ability and willingness to punish bullies for being dickheads.

Very very true, I agree with this. It was Edmund Burke who said that all that had to happen for evil men to get their way was for good men to stand by and do nothing. I take the same type of attitude, I hate Bullies, all Bullies, and feel that they should all be neutralized as soon as they cross that line.

Garland · 06-01-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GQchris

It was Edmund Burke who said that all that had to happen for evil men to get their way was for good men to stand by and do nothing

I think it was Dante Aligieri who said "the lowest part of hell is reserved for good men who let bad things happen."

Doesn't this all tie into our discussion on courage a few months ago...? Brewer poigniantly pointed out that "courage is the ability to do the right thing instead of the easy thin."

People allow themselves to be complacent and apathetic. In social psych, they have identified a phenomenon known as the "by-stander" effect, wherein a horrible thing will be going on, and nobody will stop to intervene. People assume somebody else will step in, and they don't have to. This is backed by social faccilitation, because the rest of the people think the same fucking way.

In the end, most do nothing, and sometimes, when the few do something...they are made pariahs and criticized for their efforts by those who didn't have the balls to act, who sit leizurly in their chairs and wax legally and ethically from ivory towers and high horses.

In the end, many of the few that do act may be swayed not to based upon the oh-so-horribly-true maxim "no good deed goes unpunished".

TTEscrima · 06-04-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

In the mean time, I'm going to make two recommendations. First, start carrying a bottle of Visine. The original kind, not a knock-off or a different formula. You work at a bar, and I'm assuming these guys show up to drink, too. Hit their drinks with a good squirt of Visine, and they'll get a serious case of upset stomach. It won't win any fights for you by itself, but it'll send them to the bathroom for sure - and it'll keep them there.

No one likes to be seen hugging the toilet, so there's a strong chance they'll just leave. This was one of the things I used to do to get people to leave without fighting if I thought they were going to be pains in the ass. If violence wasn't justified, just make 'em sick as a dog. In a bar, everyone immediately assumes they just can't hold their liquor and you're in the clear.

Of course, there's always the possibility that you want to take things up a notch. That's where the second suggestion comes in. Juice one of them with the Visine and make sure he goes to the bathroom alone. Follow him in there, and when he's busy puking out his lungs, mash him in the head with something heavy. If you knock him out, make sure to leave him laying on his side so he doesn't die.

It's barbaric and pretty illegal in most places, but it's one of the better ways I know of to ambush.

I missed this earlier, BAD IDEA!! It's illegal AS HELL and it's also bullshit, Visine does NOT cause these symptoms!!! I've seen this dumbassed wives tale tried many times on board ship, it will cause difficulty in breathing and rectal bleeding and vomiting as well as hospitalizing your victim but it isn't going to happen while you wait in the bar. It WILL get you arrested and sued for poisoning customers assuming they don't just come back and burn the bar down or shoot everyone in it. Self defense this ain't, it's more like suicide.

snopes.com: Visine Prank

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/998832/posts

Man's drink spiked with 'Visine' - Video News Live

Obscure Store and Reading Room: Woman arrested for spiking acquaintance's drink with Visine

L.I. Woman Accused Of Spiking Drink With Visine, Dog Attack - News Story - WNBC | New York

Big Isle airman faces court-martial

A jet mechanic could be sentenced
to life in prison if convicted

A Big Island F-15 jet mechanic will face a general court-martial in May for allegedly killing a fellow airman at Kadena Air Base on Okinawa.

In announcing the decision to court-martial Airman 1st Class Damien Kawai for the death of Airman 1st Class Charles Eskew Jr., Brig. Gen. Gary North, commander of Kadena's 18th Wing, said: "Kadena Air Base officials are following appropriate military legal procedures to preserve the integrity of the proceedings. It remains critically important that these proceedings be as thorough as possible to ensure fairness for all parties involved."

Air Force officials had the option of pursuing the death penalty in the case but now say that Kawai faces a maximum penalty of life in prison without the possibility of parole if convicted.

Both Kawai and Eskew were assigned to the 18th Maintenance Squadron at Kadena Air Base.

Kawai has been in pretrial confinement since Nov. 19 as a result of an investigation by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Eskew was found dead in his dormitory room Nov. 17.

Kawai, 19, also is charged with the theft of some of Eskew's belongings and impeding investigators.

At a six-hour pretrial hearing Feb. 18 at Kadena, Air Force Special Agent Clifford Minor testified that Kawai, a 2000 Pahoa High School graduate, confessed to killing Eskew.

Minor said Kawai wrote in a statement that he put Visine eye drops in Eskew's beer, causing Eskew to vomit and have difficulty breathing.

TTEscrima · 06-04-2008, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

JUST WANTED TO INFORM:

after consulting with a few veteran bartenders I know...the visine trick apparently worked so well that the company that produces the eye drops no longer uses that "active"

ingredient in their product. So...find another means.

It NEVER worked it's an urban legend, people were trying this 20 years ago in the Navy it didn't work the way people said then either, it damn near killed the victims because they couldn't breathe though.

Garland · 06-05-2008, 12:29 AM

Activated Charcoal or Syrup of Ipicac may work...but it is DEFINITELY "poison" and may induce esophegeal tears, gastric bleeding, etc. etc.

05-12-2008, 12:38 PM	#16 (permalink)
Hardball Premiere Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,235	Not being able to own a gun sucks. U.K. and Australia laws suck big time. __________________ The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 30,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

05-12-2008, 02:23 PM	#18 (permalink)
DJColdfusion Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: SLC, Utah Posts: 444	#1: Don’t train because you are afraid of somebody knocking you around. If there is a specific person or a group of specific individuals who are threatening you then you MUST contact your local police about it. If they are bugging you at the bar you work at then talk to management and get them to ban the people causing the problem. #2: Continuing with #1, Train because you love to train and the ability to defend yourself will come. Train out of love for the art not fear of a person. #3: Mike Brewer kicked me back in 1999 and it still hurts. __________________ MaximumG.com -- Combat sports!

05-12-2008, 02:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
Hardball Premiere Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,235	Yea he is in a precarious position because the bad guys have a code. "Snitches get Stitches" Going to the police is no guarentee of a successful outcome. Bad Guys respect you when you stand up for yourself. The problem is, it sounds like you need a weapon and the law is not in your favor. Quitting (evasion) like Mike B suggested sounds like the best option right now. __________________ The Way of the Warrior is Practice. Daily practice, accumulate practice minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. {Book of 5 Rings} Mike Brewers 2008 Sit up challenge 30,000/100,000 running balance.(Crunches) Kicks 6,300/100,000

05-27-2008, 02:02 AM	#24 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 4,925	JUST WANTED TO INFORM: after consulting with a few veteran bartenders I know...the visine trick apparently worked so well that the company that produces the eye drops no longer uses that "active" ingredient in their product. So...find another means. __________________ I kick you in da neck! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBHLrpn07G4 http://www.break.com/movies/englishf.html homo homini lupus Komm Susser Todd. No, no...no no no...whatever you are drinking, you need much, much more...and then to sleep. - jubaji

06-05-2008, 12:29 AM	#30 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 4,925	Activated Charcoal or Syrup of Ipicac may work...but it is DEFINITELY "poison" and may induce esophegeal tears, gastric bleeding, etc. etc. __________________ I kick you in da neck! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBHLrpn07G4 http://www.break.com/movies/englishf.html homo homini lupus Komm Susser Todd. No, no...no no no...whatever you are drinking, you need much, much more...and then to sleep. - jubaji

05-12-2008, 01:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,167	I spoke with a more rational, more mature friend of mine about this and he had some really good advice. I thought I owed it to you to put up a serious response, so here goes (from the mind and mouth of someone a whole bunch more rational than I): You've made some pretty serious mistakes in allowing these guys to intimidate and threaten you. You've put yourself in a serious position of weakness, and the fact that you didn't go to the police or sue them for every penny they have after they broke your jaw means you've set youself up as just about the most perfect vicitim ever. There's really no coming back from that. You work at a bar. That means you're not talking about a make-or-break career. The only other real solution apart from violent, probably criminal, action is distance. Quit. Go find another job somewhere else. It's a bar in Australia, and so a replacement should not be difficult to come by. And after you've done that, make sure you don't start off on the same foot. Don't take threats without responding legally. Don't take beatings without pressing charges. In short, don't make losing a habit. Next time around, face the threats head on from the outset and be willing to take and give your lumps. In a nutshell, you gotta be like a procupine. No one will ever accuse a porcupine of being the toughest critter in the woods, but nothing screws with it because it's just too much of a hassle. You may not win, but you can sure make it so that the consequences of picking on you are more "quill" than anyone's willing to deal with.

05-26-2008, 12:36 AM	#23 (permalink)
TechRon Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 3	"No-name," I don't know what kind of instructors you're meeting but I'm in NY and I went to Krav Maga specifically because of legal issues. I don't want to get into it but my instructor has gone above and beyond the call of duty for me. He trains law enforcement officers as well so he's dead serious about survival. I specifically chose Krav Maga because I didn't want to be forced to bow to pictures of people's dead ancestors or masters, or have to hear varying philosophies from chairs and tables having souls to why the world was meant to spin in the opposite direction. I just needed to protect myself fast and hard. I needed serious help and I didn't have time to give years to obtain that. Yeah, you're going to have to fight "dirty" if that's what people want to call protecting your basic human right to life. The tactics described in previous posts sound pretty reasonable to me. When someone approaches you, you have no idea whether they are trying to harm you or kill you. Do whatever you have to in order to protect yourself. Real simple. About running away and leaving your woman behind... I hope since your last post they've left you with a better impression. Okay, one of the things I have to deal with is that I have to protect a few other individuals. From the start, I was taught how to maneuver an attacker in order to (1) keep him subdued and under my control, (2) keep an eye on anyone else around, and (3) how to get to that position in numerous ways. And he can even teach me to work that in more ways if need be. Remember, Krav Maga is also about being able to adapt - staying sharp, staying aware of this ever-changing world. About dealing with kickboxers...we use plenty of kicks in Krav Maga. At least my instructor does. He also drills us 'til we drop. So the cardio work is there. About not wanting to get hurt...I've been hurt bad. I really can't afford another injury. But my instructor works with my risk level so there's no shortage of moves in my case. Like others said, you may not be able to avoid getting hurt but you can lower the risk drastically, and you train to avoid your most vulnerable spots. In Krav Maga, there's also a focus on being aware at all times. I get stress tests where I'm being hit blindfolded or have to respond only when I hear certain sounds. Let me know if you have any other questions. I'll do my best to help even though I think everyone else has done a great job in answering so far. I just hope that the people you're dealing with do right by you. I train in NY at Davide's Yorktown Total Fitness. I don't remember right now but maybe his website talks about what Krav Maga is supposed to be. Davide himself is my teacher. Even in NYC, finding the right Krav Maga school wasn't easy. I didn't want to deal with just anybody. Anyhow, I wish you the best, man. Be safe. Do whatever it takes.

06-01-2008, 03:38 AM	#25 (permalink)
ltindiandaeng Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Northern Thailand Posts: 65	I was in a similar situation years ago.I was working in a bar and had to throw some guys out for fighting.Actually I was one of several bouncers there as it was a big bar.On the way home that night I was surrounded by these same 6 guys.I know I would have gotten my butt kicked or worse if I tried to fight all 6 guys,so I said to their "leader',something to the effect of he must be a gutless punk to need 6 guys to beat 1,especially since he was bigger than me himself.I guess he didn't want to lose face so he said he would fight me himself and he got the short end,so he told his gang to help him and they just stood there.I don't think they were afraid,I just think they wanted this guy to back up his big talk. Anyway cops showed up then and whole thing ended.I used to see all these guys often after the incident,including the guy I had fight with,and never another problem. Point is maybe if you get cauhgt alone by these punks if you call out their leader,maybe at least you will only have to fight one guy instead of a gang.On the other hand maybenot,and the fact is it will take a whole lot of training before you are ready to take on multiple opponents,whether kickboxrs or not.The best advice you already have gotten from other people. Call the cops and take them to court.Carry a weapon of some kind,as long as it is legal.try to avoid getting caught alone on the street.Good luck One other thought:if these Serbian guys are in your country illegally,maybe if you have them arrested they will be deported.

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