no-name

hi guys.. i'm a 19 yr old guy from australia and i am a little bit overweight atm.. however right now i'm trying to lose all these weight and do so by going to the gym and do alot of weight training/resistance training and also cardio (mostly bikes rpms classes and also jogging).. however where i currently work at (a bar), there is this group of serbian guys that likes to pick on me for whatever reason it is.. i've also heard that these people are trained kickboxers.. but they just would not leave me alone and they are always at my work every weekend... so i was looking for ways in which i could defend against these guys if anything were to happen.. one of my friend at work suggested krav maga.. i wanted to do this however it would cost me around $600-700/yr if i join KM.. and after reading around on the net.. i've found out that krav maga only works against normal civilians not trained kickboxers..

so my question is (and yes i will keep continuing train my cardio level, strength and punch and kicks via heavy bags) what could i learn out there to defend myself against these guys? i wouldn't mind using dirty tactics as long as i don't get hurt and could defend myself (2 months ago one of the guy punched me to the back of my jaw behind my back and i had to get it reconstructed).. the only school that i can find in adelaide is krav maga school which teaches brazilian jiujitsu as well (the instructor is a blackbelt).. do you think if i trained in these 2 i would be able to defend myself on the street against even trained fighters.. thanks alot

Mike Brewer

You're in a tough spot. You are going to have to accept that fighting means getting hit, and that you might even get hurt when you win. That part is pretty much non-negotiable. Also, since there's more than one of them, the odds are going to be very, very tough to overcome.

I'd say yes - take some lessons. Tell the instructor you're there to learn to protect yourself and listen to what he says. Train hard, be strong, and accept that the only particular medicine for this problem is being able to win. You won't come out of it unscathed, but if you're smart, you will come out of it a winner.

In the mean time, I'm going to make two recommendations. First, start carrying a bottle of Visine. The original kind, not a knock-off or a different formula. You work at a bar, and I'm assuming these guys show up to drink, too. Hit their drinks with a good squirt of Visine, and they'll get a serious case of upset stomach. It won't win any fights for you by itself, but it'll send them to the bathroom for sure - and it'll keep them there.

No one likes to be seen hugging the toilet, so there's a strong chance they'll just leave. This was one of the things I used to do to get people to leave without fighting if I thought they were going to be pains in the ass. If violence wasn't justified, just make 'em sick as a dog. In a bar, everyone immediately assumes they just can't hold their liquor and you're in the clear.

Of course, there's always the possibility that you want to take things up a notch. That's where the second suggestion comes in. Juice one of them with the Visine and make sure he goes to the bathroom alone. Follow him in there, and when he's busy puking out his lungs, mash him in the head with something heavy. If you knock him out, make sure to leave him laying on his side so he doesn't die.

It's barbaric and pretty illegal in most places, but it's one of the better ways I know of to ambush.

All of the above is strictly for information purposes, and was designed to show you how silly fighting of this type is. Your best bet is really to take your case to the police, especially the whole reconstructed jaw issue.

chillaplata

A group of guys is showing up at your workplace every weekend and harrassing you? They've already assaulted you at least once and broken (?) your jaw? Dude, the martial arts technique you need to learn is picking up the phone and dialing 911 (or whatever number you need to call for the police in your area).

I'm not trying to discourage you from training in martial arts -- I think it's a good idea for anyone, especially someone who works in as rough an environment as you apparently do. You've got to realize though that (i) it will take you time (probably at least six months depending on what you are training and your background, athleticism, etc.) for you to be able even to begin applying the techniques you've learned in an actual fight and (ii) even a highly trained martial artist would have a hard time taking on a group of assailants, especially a group of trained kickboxers.

Speak with your employer and see if he will hire some security. Then call the police immediately the next time these guys start acting up. It may even make sense to file a police report on the assault two months ago -- the cops may not be able to do much at this point, but at least you are building a record and alerting them to the seriousness of the situation. Finally, if your employer refuses to protect you and the police can't help, find another job...your safety is more important than a paycheck.

chillaplata

Sorry to duplicate some of what Mr. Brewer said ... posted my reply before I saw his.

no-name

yes i understand that i needed to call the police.. but what i won't be protected by the police all the time if you get what i mean.. offcourse i will take precaution like u stated.. i've also talked to my employer about this and they have been warned that they will be banned from the place.. but one of them threatened that they will do much worst to me if one of our security do anything to them..

this is why i needed to do something about defending myself.. i mean that is true that i will not come out unscratched.. i understand this.. but the least that i could do is to come out of the fight a winner like u said (meaning they dont beat me up and permanently damage myself).. i just really want to be able to defend myself and become a good fighter..

my question is would krav maga help my cause? because the only self defence place in adelaide that i could find atm is krav maga.. there was 1 muaythai gym in the city but it has been closed down around 12 weeks ago

chillaplata

Hi no-name,

Are you thinking of training at this school?

(Krav Maga - Street Defensive Tactics teaches Krav Maga in Adelaide and seminars in Sydney and Melbourne Australia)

I have no combatives or krav maga background, and it's hard to judge from a website, but this school looks pretty good to me for a few reasons:
- they seem to emphasize live training
- some of the instructors seem to have extensive security experience and experience training military personnel
- they emphasize the importance of tactical awareness, preparedness, managing confrontations, etc.

I would say try the free classes and see how your like it. If many of your fellow students are cops, bouncers and others who may actually need to use self-defense techniques regularly, that would be a good sign.

You might also consider keeping a truncheon or baton behind the bar. A non-lethal weapon like that could be the equalizer if these guys assault you again. I have no idea what is and is not permitted under Australian self-defense laws, but I would think most cops or juries would look sympathetically on someone who pulls a truncheon against a gang of attackers (particularly a gang of kickboxers who have already broken his jaw). On the other hand, I would not carry a knife if I were you -- the risks seem to me too great that (i) your attackers may take your knife away and use it against you or (ii) you may be in serious legal trouble if you end up stabbing one of them. (I don't know if the people harrassing you are likely to be armed -- I assume they are probably not carrying guns, in view of Australia's strict gun control laws, but if they have other weapons and you pull a weapon of your own things may get ugly fast.)

I hope you enjoy training at the KM school, and through a combination of training and support from police and security you are able to handle this situation.

Mike Brewer

Yeah, I say go for the training at the Krav place. But never forget that these guys are using bullying tactics. They're counting on threats and your fears to win the day for them. Threatening you with violence if you go to the cops, or threatening retaliation if anything happens to them is a classic way to isolate you and make you feel powerless. If you accept those terms and fail to act because they might do bad things to you in the future, you're making a habit of losing. You're allowing them to dictate the terms of the "fight," and you're playing by their rules. They already have numbers on you. There's no reason on Earth that you should let them dictate the rest of the playing field on top of it.

If it was me, and I were in your place, I'd start like this:

• File a police report. Get something on record that shows that these guys have started the problem. Use your medical bills as proof that they've assaulted you before.
• Take them to small claims court and sue them for recovery of your medical expenses. If your court system does restraining orders, get one.
• Tell your lawyer that you've begun training because you're afraid of what these guys might do to you. In the eyes of the law, swallow your pride and play the victim.
• The reason for the above is to set a legal paper trail that shows you're trying to resolve things peacefully and legally, and to show that they are the problem - not you. Show that you're going to considerable effort and expense to handle things the right way, and that you've got no intention of pursuing these guys outside the law. If that doesn't work...
• Wait for them to come in the bar and run the Visine game on them. Get yourself a nice little piece of pipe or just use a full beer bottle. Ambush the stupid bastard in the bathroom and leave him bleeding on the floor. Maybe crack a few of his teeth out on the rim of the pisser. For all he (or anyone else knows), he passed out from being too drunk. He'll know the difference, of course, but with all the peaceful and legal measures you've taken, he still looks like the bad guy and you still look like the victim.

I may be the worst person here to ask about stuff like this, though. I have very little patience for bullies, and I have to admit, my very first impulse is to step up and take the Pepsi challenge when one of them gets too bold. The meanest fights I've ever been in have been bullies. Looking back, I wish I'd been a little more mature, but I don't feel guilty in the least for hurting these folks. One of them, for the purposes of background, was a repeat offender that used to wander in my school from time to time and try to hurt the beginners. While demonstrating a technique to the class, I used him as a partner and he decided to take advantage and try to hurt me. I broke his neck. He recovered, but he still goes to therapy and he quit martial arts and became a massage therapist. He called a few times after that incident to "reminisce" and told me he "forgave me." In all honesty, it didn't phase me much, and I never remembered asking forgiveness. He was a guy I tried to help on several occasions, offering him free classes and personal one-on-one training in an attempt to get him to change his ways. He just never let go of the bully attitude, and every time he came in my place, he'd try to rough someone up. When he did it with me, I got tired of being the nice guy and I hurt him back. He made the bed, as they say, and I don't feel bad for making him lie in it.

The purpose of that story is two-fold. One, it's to make you aware that I may not be the most morally grounded guy in the world when it comes to bullies. I hate the attitude, and I rarely let it go unaddressed or unpunished. I'll try to do things another way if possible, but I am not the least bit opposed to dishing out my own justice if it seems like the only way to make the behavior stop. Take my advice in the proper context, and recognize that my opinions are just that - my opinions. Second, it is to illustrate that you can't fight back against a bully at all if you're willing to be intimidated by their threats. If you let them dictate whether or not you call the cops or whether or not the security people can throw them out, you're agreeing to every bad thing they want to do to you. You're allowing yourself to be ruled by intimidation and fear. Sometimes it's best to stand up, take your lumps, and make them hurt so badly in the process that they realize it's just easier to pick on somebody else. My personal view on this type of person is that you should escalate the level of violence radically and without warning next time you feel threatened. If they start with the veiled threats, don't talk, don't negotiate, and don't posture. Break their fucking teeth out with a hammer right then and there, and do it well before they're ready to deal with you. While they're thinking "talk smack," you're already on "reconstructive dentistry."

Just my knuckle-dragger point of view.

Tom Yum

Focusing on the martial arts aspect, if you find yourself at a good gym with good instructors - what you learn, will work.

A friend of mine got into an altercation a few years back, when someone's dog wandered over to him, started growling and bit into his boot. He was minding his own business, just going straight from point A to his car. He tried to shoe the dog away - not really trying to hurt it, but just get it off so he could get into his car.

The owner of the dog came out and started accosting my friend, with the dog still attached to his boot. Something happened where the guy approached him and my friend axe elbowed the guy across the face - split him open from eye, across the nose and to his cheek.

Didn't knock the guy out, but it staggered him really, really good and wounded him pretty badly. Anything more, might have been outside what is considered justifiable self-defense.

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DickHardman

i dont mean to get off topic, as homie here needs some real help.


but jsut out of curiosity mike, how did u end up breaking that one dudes neck?? did you strike him or was it like one of those steven seagal neck snap moves???? was it an accident or was this guy so out of control that he needed to be seriously injured immediately? whats the deal.

__________________
"Don't taze me bro!!!"

I wanna see it painted, painted black
Black as night, black as coal
I wanna see the sun blotted out from the sky
I wanna see it painted, painted, painted, painted black

The Grand Deception
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OneWjG74er8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7eQg0nqH5A

Mike Brewer

I put him in a neck crank and didn't let go when he tapped.

I was demonstrating an escape form the mount, and I had him mount me so I could show the class. When I got done, he slammed my shoulders down to the mat and dropped his weight like he wanted to fight. He'd played that game before, and I always corrected him on the spot - sometimes verbally, and sometimes "ballistically." I was in no mood to be screwed with, especially by someone who was trying to boost his own ego by trying to take advantage of me in front of my own class. Bottom line was, I'd given him the mount so I could show the escape, and he tried to take advantage of a superior position he wouldn't have gotten otherwise. So I told him that if he insisted on continuing, I was going to get out of the position and hurt him. He just dropped his weight and said something like "Go ahead and try." So I did. I mounted him and slapped on a front neck crank. I made him tap maybe forty or fifty times and then finally let go when I was tired of listening to him whine. It was maybe two years before I heard from him again. When he called after those two years, he was drunk and he told me he closed down his school, quit training, quit teaching, and became a massage therapist. He said I'd broken his neck that night (didn't expand on how, exactly, or what part broke), and he still had to see a chiropractor for it, but that he "forgave me." I felt bad that it took that kind of lesson to get the message across, but I mean it when I tell you I tried EVERYTHING else. I talked to him, I worked him over in classes, I threw him out, and I even knocked him out a few times. He just always came back smelling like beer and acting like an asshole. So I broke his neck. No guilt, and no remorse. He had all the warnings I knew how to give him.

He never bullied any of my students again, though.

Tom Yum

I think it boils down to etiquette, again. You're supposed to be a training-partner and are there to learn. Bad on him.

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Mike Brewer

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it really boils down to not being a dick. I don't mind people who have high levels of confidence. I don't even mind the occasional student who isn't as good as he thinks he is. What I mind is guys who want to come in and hurt people because they think they can. I don't like it in training, and I don't stand for it in my day to day life. Pushing people around just because someone gets off on it is unacceptable. Bullying is not something I consider a failure of ettiquette. It is a failure of character, and it is something that deserves to be punished. Since I'm not the type that thinks we should let things go entirely and trust in fate or God to punish evildoers, there are a few things I tend to recognize as "my jurisdiction." I think God put us all here with out own sets of skills and tools and abilities, and one of my skill sets is the ability and willingness to punish bullies for being dickheads.

I've knocked out all kinds of people who wandered in trying to push around the juniors. I always have a rule - if you're the type that comes in wanting to fight, you get to move with me first. That way, I can assess where you're at and determine whether or not you're going to get carried away and hurt my students. I've always believed that we train at the intensity of the junior partner, and so I always let the other guy take the lead. If they are trying to show off or hurt me, I will not trust them to work with my students. If they really try to hurt me, I'll defend myself. If they're trying to be bullies about it, I'll hurt them and throw them out on the sidewalk while they're still unconscious. I just never developed any tolerance for that kind of shit.

As for the mental aspect, you see it all over the place. It's usually the overly sensitive types that take offense at the littlest thing and then fire back with asymetric intensity. You say something that someone takes the wrong way, and all of a sudden, the guy wants to "Kill you, motherfucker!" The threats and posturing and intimidation are probes. The intention is to see whether or not you'll fold, because if you fold to that kind of intimidation, you'll be a more willing victim. It only goes up from there. It's like when you apologize to someone for a misunderstanding and all they want to do is get meaner and nastier? They weren't offended at all. They were looking for a reason to screw with you, and that kind of posturing is their way of justifiying dickish behavior. All you can do is recognize the behavior for whta it is and act accordingly - which is to say don't entertain stupidity, and don't belittle yourself by making concessions to a bully. Just knock the shit out of them (figuratively or literally) and move on.

no-name

just took my first class today.. and i loved it!! however one thing that i was concern about krav maga is more about defending yourself only by running out of the situation.. in real life situations there are alot that can happen for example if you're with your girlfriend and suddenly someone attacks you.. offcourse you can run but what will happen with your girlfriend? i tried asking the krav instructor this and they think that i'm looking for a streetfight..

it kind of upsets me because im being serious about street defense.. but if you guys have more input on which other practice i can do please give input.. or should i stick to krav?

chillaplata

I think you should explain your situation to the krav instructor, if you haven't already done so. Emphasize that you are not looking for a fight, and you have already done all you can to prevent future attacks by alerting the police and your employer to the problem, but you want to learn to protect yourself as best you can if you are attacked again.

BTW congratulations on starting training -- best of luck!

Mike Brewer

Good advice Chilla.

No-name, the fact of the matter is, no one can tell you why to train. No one gets to be your moral judge but you. If the instructors at the Krav school are reluctant to teach you, then explain things to them and be confident when you do. Tell them what you've done to try and resolve things peacefully, and tell them that the reason you came to them is because you need to tools to be able to handle things if peaceful resolution fails. You seem fully capable of avoiding conflicts, and therefore you probably don't need their help staying out of fights. What you need is for them to teach you what to do when violence is the only option.

A lot of martial arts instructors feel this Karate Kid need to act as some kind of spiritual or moral guide to their students. That's a fine thing, if it's what the students need or want. But when you're there to learn to fight, they ought to teach that first and save their moral judgements for personal time and conversations.

Let them know what you need. Tell them why, and show them that you're taking steps to handle things legally and peacefully. But also let them know you don't think those measures are enough, and that your only other recourse is to follow the advice of some guy on line who keeps telling you to poison their drinks and blast them in the back of the neck with a 2x4 when they aren't looking.