Guns

[Little Apple]

OK, so that being said, do you guys feel that the little disarming tricks that lots of martial art places teach are appropriate as they are? Do you think they do the job of inserting the concept of dealing with a gun, without overstepping the line into "this is too dangerous and you are not qualified"?

[Mike Brewer]

Many of the techniques taught for gun disarming are dangerous for a host of reasons. There are plenty of ways to effectively disarm a gun if the assailant is both close enough to you and stationary enough. However, many of the techniques taught do not consider possible discharges into nearby crowds or innocent bystanders, the legal ramifications of what comes after you've taken away the gun, and many other aspects. There are more ways to get seriously hurt or killed when dealing with a gun than there are of doing it safely.

Now the macho crowd often says, "Who cares about 'legal ramifications?' I'd take it away and shoot the guy and deal with it at trial." My personal definition of self-defense, though, is getting to go home to my wife and son when it's all over with. Getting locked up because I tried to take away a gun and got some innocent pedestrian killed in the process, or going to jail because I snatched a gun away from a guy and then shot him with it (effectively meaning I shot an unarmed man) does not fit that definition.

I believe it is far safer and more effective to employ a weapon of your own than to get in a struggle with someone else over theirs. While there is really no "safe" method of disarming a gun (or knife), two shots in the ten-ring from a few paces is leagues safer than trying to grab the gun and twist it from the attacker's grasp.

[darrianation]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

OK, so that being said, do you guys feel that the little disarming tricks that lots of martial art places teach are appropriate as they are? Do you think they do the job of inserting the concept of dealing with a gun, without overstepping the line into "this is too dangerous and you are not qualified"?

My .02 on disarms.

Most disarms I see in most systems are laughable and will likely get the user killed. That said there are still some good ones that are simple, safe, and effective out there.

I think the range from the threat will dictate the actions taken (tactics) in this case. Believe me the best gunfighters in the world cannot out draw a firearm already deployed and pointing at them a problem further complicated by drawing their weapon from concealment.

At the closer ranges say 0-8 feet the fight is not a gun fight it is a combatives fight. Closing the distance and going for the disarm although not perfect actually produces higher percentage results than attempting to draw against the badguy who already has his gun pointed at your face.

At further distances away (beyond 10 feet) exploding off the X to the sharper angles of the 11 or 1 o’clock preferably to his backhand while drawing and shooting while continuing to move offers better results. In force training the goodguy can usually get 2 or 3 hits on the badguy before taking a hit and we cannot discount what real ballistic effects these hits will have on the badguy.

Using an elliptical movement pattern stepping off to the 11:00 then back to the 1:00 to close for the disarm can usually be done with the goodguy taking zero hits within 6-7 feet or a side step (off muzzle) and grab if the firearm is close enough.

Without getting into the actual disarms themselves (although fairly simple they are hard to explain without visuals) suffice it to say you can either do the disarm or control the weapon/arm until you can get your own weapon into the fight.

Any fight especially one involving weapons is inherently dangerous I don’t think the risk of attempting a disarm is anymore dangerous than complying or going for weapons access at the closer ranges without creating the opportunity to safely access your own weapons first.

If you are caught unarmed I don’t see you have much of a choice.

[Mike Brewer]

Darian -
You've addressed two awesome points, and I wanted to take a moment and give you the credit you deserve.

#1: The observation that there are times when one simply has to accept the situation for what it is and "go for broke" is crucial. There are times when, despite being a bad idea, one just has to bite down and try. Much like many of us pointed out in our conversations about the Virginia Tech shooting, the only other alternative is to die cowering. Understanding the situation and clearly grasping the alternatives to action are more important than anyone would like to admit.

#2: Keeping it simple and being committed to the action are a close second to all the things mentioned above. Getting fancy will only get you or others around you killed.

Bravo, dariannation, for a great summary.

I did have one question, though. Given the well-thought-out nature of the rest of the post, I'm sure this is my own misreading of the information you posted. In one part of your post, you recommended stepping from 11 to 1 o'clock? The way I am visualizing that motion, it seems you're advocating stepping all the way across the muzzle of the weapon pointed at you. If the bad guy is at 12 o'clock...

Any chance you could clarify?

[darrianation]

Sure-

Once you’ve stepped to the 11:00 you are off muzzle and the opponent’s orientation to you is at the 1:00.

You really want to move to his back hand if at all possible so if he was a lefty (gun in his left hand) the movement pattern would be to the 1:00 then back to the 11:00. Think Kali (Pekiti-Tirsia) foot work. Often moving out of the false lead is quicker and faster.

Why move to the backhand side? Because it takes longer for him to track to his backhand side. If he doesn’t expect you to move (and he won’t) it is like you’re there one second and vanished the next and by the time he figures out what has happened you are on him. This even works when he knows what you are going to do, but he won’t know and it works very well. Almost all first shots miss if he gets one off at all.

Some folks can cover more ground than others but about 6-8 feet away from the gunman is usually about the furthest for most folks after that distance you have to apply different tactics, though I have successfully accomplished disarms without being shot out to 12 feet while I’ve seen others do it repeatedly out to 14 feet, it depends on your body type and level of athleticism.. But even older rounder folks with little athleticism can do it at 7 feet. Most civilian gunfights happen within 7 feet.

This is all premised on the badguy’s gun already being out and pointed at you and your gun is still holstered in its normal concealed carry position.

[Mike Brewer]

Gotcha. I wasn't thinking in terms of the opponent's new position, but rather I was keeping him at 12 o'clock throughout. That makes sense now.

I agree that the backhand side is better if you have any choice in the matter. The opponent is weaker that direction, less coordinated, and as you pointed out, slower. It also keeps you out of harm's way with the other hand and if you manage to get ahold of the gun, allows you to put his body parts in front of the muzzle more readily. Taking the inside on a gun disarm means you're pointing his gun outward and potentially at bystanders. The outside is better if there's any measure of choice - you're right.

I might add to the discussion that if you're faced with the unattractive option of trying to disarm a gun with your bare hands:

• Try to grip the slide or cylinder (depending on the type of firearm) tightly without getting any meaty parts in front of the muzzle. This will not stop the gun from going bang once, but it will stop the follow-up shots.
  
• Getting a nice fat pice of your hand on the slide or cylinder is even better if it's toward the rear of the gun. This increases the odds of you interfering with the hammer itself (assuming the gun has one) and keeping it from firing even the first time. And yes, it will hurt to get your hand pinched by a hammer, but not nearly as much as getting shot. Believe me; I have experienced both.
  
• Controlling the weapon should be the primary concern, so get both hands on that bastard. Then, beat the beejeezus out of the attacker with any other body parts and/or surrounding environmental elements you can use. Knees, headbutts, elbows, stomps, walls, and fire hydrants are just some examples.
  
• If you face this situation, you'll be scared. Don't try anything fancy. Especially if this isn't an area you train very often. Maintain weapon control and hurt him until he lets go.
  
  
• The human hand cannot maintain a very strong grip on a pistol. There's a natural "hole" in the grip at the back of the hand toward the wrist, so when you grab the gun, drive it away from you and toward the opponent. It's likely to come loose by virtue of incidental/accidental leverage.

[darrianation]

Mike-Gotcha. I wasn't thinking in terms of the opponent's new position, but rather I was keeping him at 12 o'clock throughout. That makes sense now.

That's correct, it looks like this

[darrianation]

For distances further away:

Acceptable lines of movement. The closer you are to the threat the sharper the angles should be. There are several acceptible scenarios here.

Feet move first then drawstroke and shoot while you continue to move.

[Tant01]

Unless it's your job or duty one should could consider that distance is your friend. The idea is to get away safe, right?

[gregimotis]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Unless it's your job or duty one should could consider that distance is your friend. The idea is to get away safe, right?

The idea is to get away safe... but maybe if the bad guys got killed a little more often, there'd be fewer innocents gunned down for their purses and cell phones.

[darrianation]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Unless it's your job or duty one should could consider that distance is your friend. The idea is to get away safe, right?

The best fight is the one you never get into and the highest level of self-defense is avoidance.

If you believe you can safely get away then you have no obligation to stay but there are other things to consider too not the least of which is being shot in the back. After the possibility of being shot in the back other things to consider are escape routes or an active shooter in a mall or like Virginia Tech, etc, situation although you have no legal obligation to protect the innocent we don’t need any more cowards either the world is full of them (and I am not calling anyone here a coward---just making a general point).Otherwise if you can make a clean get-away then do it.

Remember gunfighting is 50% shooting the badguy and 50% not getting shot. The most important between the two is not getting shot.

[darrianation]

If you noticed in the second diagram above there is a second movement or change in angle. This is important because at some point along the first line of muzzle evasion the badguy will begin to track you and if you haven’t dropped him by this point he will begin to get hits on you sooner or later.

The second line of movement (change in direction) accounts for this and he has to re-track you giving you more time to get more hits on him. In this movement scheme you do not cross in front of his muzzle at anytime.

[Mike Brewer]

I think we're talking about situations where disarming is the only reasonable option. Otherwise, I think my father said it well when he said:

"The best gun defense of all is a well-turned corner."

[darrianation]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I think we're talking about situations where disarming is the only reasonable option. Otherwise, I think my father said it well when he said:

"The best gun defense of all is a well-turned corner."

The Nike defense!

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by darrianation

The best fight is the one you never get into and the highest level of self-defense is avoidance.

.... if you can make a clean get-away then do it.

Remember gunfighting is 50% shooting the badguy and 50% not getting shot. The most important between the two is not getting shot.

We are in agreement. If the only way out is through the gun then you should have the confidence to attack it. Just not false confidence.

I can string fire ten under two and hit stuff even from the hip. I wouldn't want me shooting at me. Tactics and armor or not...