Guns

[Red Rum]

To be honest, the best way to tackle knives and guns is to NOT grab the weapon. You will be surprised how attackers react when you go for a good technique and it will not be the same as a person in a dojo pointing a rubber gun at you.

The best way is to go straight for the attacker. Then you can deal with the weapon

If you need any convincing try and disarm an opponent who is holding a red felt pen. It's a wake up call when you are covered in red ink. It makes you realise that if it was a knife you would have been sliced up. In a gun situation it would be even worse.

There are some schools that are extremely good at gun disarmament but at the end of the day if you make a mistake in the technique, you are going to get shot. If you strike the attacker hard and fast, their first thought won't be to use the gun

[Tant01]

Direct aggression is a very important part of disarming. In some cases they will actually drop the gun themselves...But you can't count on it. Weapon control is still the primary objective.

IMHO

[Mike Brewer]

In most of the knife encounters I've been in, I'd tend to agree that direct attack is the best. It's what I've used in all but one instance, and here I am!

However, with a gun, I disagree. Errant rounds can kill innocent bystanders or family members, and all it takes to keep that from happening is stoving a round in the chamber. I'm not saying that weapon control should be the goal to the exclusion of direct aggression, but that the two should go together and that the weapon (especially in the event of a ranged weapon like a handgun) needs to be brought under tight control.

[darrianation]

I agree with Tanto and Mike in that controlling the weapon is very important and I also agree directing aggression and violence upon the weapon wielder go hand in hand.

But I would have to say I would much rather face the gun at such close ranges then the knife. The knife is much more dangerous at this range and much more difficult to deal with.

[Mike Brewer]

You're right, Dariannation.

While distance is truly your friend when facing a handgun, it works both ways. Get far enough away, and he'll have a hard time hitting you. Get too close, and he'll have an equally hard time. That goes double if you add movement, control of the weapon, and violence of action.

[Little Apple]

as a random side note, wouldn't using a squirt gun be better for training gun defense than a pen?

Anyway, I don't know or anything, but what I've heard goes with what darrianation said: knife at close range being more dangerous than a gun at close range. I've also heard that (weapon itself aside) a knife wielder is more dangerous than a gun wielder; that a person with a gun might just be there to scare you, but a person with a knife is almost always there to cut you.

[Mike Brewer]

Airsoft pistols are great for training against guns, as they can fire pellets that sting. The pellets don't hurt very badly, but you know when you were effective and when you weren't. A word of caution, though: Disarms are hard on training guns, so buy cheap and be ready to replace often.

[darrianation]

For practicing the disarms I prefer a rubber gun with the trigger gaurd cut out (and metal training knife) because the Airsofts are little fragile and break easily, I have broken 2 or 3 $100 Airsofts in this manner.

In the force on force stuff we just close and gain control and stop at that point if the airsofts are used. The airsoft are great for creating more realistic interaction that sheds light on any inadequacies in the training method but it can get expensive if you keep breaking them (even the cheapies add up after awhile).

[darrianation]

Mike in your airsoft training do you notice the majority of hits are on the hands and arms?

I think it is because the human eye naturally is programmed to look for movement which the majority of movement tends to be with the arms and in the gunfight at close ranges folks default to unsighted fire more often than not (even the modern techniquers---if they don't they die) and the rounds go to were you are instinctively and often unconsciously are looking.

That and the fact most folks shoot to center mass and the opponents gun (arms and hands too) will be in the general area as well.

I find the same thing happens in the real world in close range gunfights.

[darrianation]

I just want to add, when practicing gun disarms make sure the badguy roll player does not have his finger in the trigger guard because it can be broken if the disarm is carried out with robustness (and why shouldn't it be?).

[Mike Brewer]

Not only do I find that hits occur on the limbs that are in closest proximity, but likewise that hits on armed opponents are almost always near the weapon. When we do surprise attack drills, one of the things we'll do is take three attackers. We arm two of them, one with a knife, one with a gun. Then, the drill begins by surprise. The "shooter" has to ascertain which attacker presents the gravest threat, based on readiness, position, and weapon availability. If the gun wielding assailant is a few steps closer, but still out of reach of the knife wieldeing assailant, his gun out of the holster, then the shooter engages him first. Regardless, the hits are almost always near or even on the weapon itself because that's where the eyes are drawn.

Interesting phenomenon.

[darrianation]

We often use three badguys too, many times two are armed with guns and one with a knife otherwise they are all armed with guns.

If cover is available that may change the direction in which the goodguy moves. These diagrams are assuming there is no cover available. Also if the GG is flanked that might also change the movement pattern.

In the case of the diagram below the first burst of fire should be at the closest opponent in the direction of initial movement.

I don’t use the 2 and 1 method for shooting that is 2 to CM and 1 to CNS. I am a proponent of burst fire that is at least 3 shots to CM before moving to another target (rather that be another individual or to the head shot). And I am also a proponent of the “run & gun” unless you have good cover position and then you should still change positions often especially during reloads.

When I say 1:00 or 11:00 the angles can be just as easily increased to 2:00 or 10:00.

[darrianation]

Generally speaking you shoot the closest guy to you. However, circumstances dictate the actual tactics (or field expedient modifications to your tactics).

Folks need to realize just because you are shot (or stabbed for that matter) the fight isn’t over. Many times (in fact more often than not) wounds are not immediately incapacitating especially if the hits are not in the chest or head and you can still fight and live long enough to get medical treatment.

That is why in Airsoft training the GG if shot continues to fight and return fire…to train him not to quite if he takes a hit.

[darrianation]

Anyway Mike it is always interesting to me that folks who train realistically that is utilizing realistic scenarios and against realistic pressure more often then not come to the same conclusions.

[Mike Brewer]

Equally interesting is how often they don't!

But I understand your point.