Guns

[Little Apple]

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

You're the one SHOOTING the gun, right? It would be good to know all of these things about the gun you're using.

If you mean defending against a gunman it becomes less important. Sure it would look cool to unload his weapon for him by ejecting his clip but if your hands can get the ATTACHMENT on his weapon it's best to strip the entire weapon from his grasp (and hit him with it)

In my humble opinion...

[darrianation]

Then shoot him with it, shoot him to slide lock and if he's still on his feet hit him with it and repeat as necassary.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by darrianation

Then shoot him with it, shoot him to slide lock and (then) if he's still on his feet hit him with it and repeat as necassary.

You might post a disclaimer with advise like that. LOL I have a small caliber defensive weapon so I tend to agree with you.

Here's the problem. Are you still in fear of your life (or serious bodily injury) after he is disarmed? Is that fear "reasonable"... ??? Will the jury think it was reasonable?

If he has a second weapon Or even looks like he might be about to deploy it...

See above.


*SLIDE LOCK. After you have discharged ALL of the ammunition in the clip the lock function keeps the slide open...

[treelizard]

Take a specific gun class or more than one gun class taught by gun people. Bring your own weapon if you have one.

[Ardith]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

Guns are ranged weapons. If he's right on top of you, it's very possible for his gun to become your gun.

[Mike Brewer]

The safety can almost always be found dangling down inside the trigger guard. If the ability to press the trigger is impeded, the gun is (for self-defense purposes anyway) safe.

I agree that guns are an ever-growing concern, and high-profile incidents like the one that took the life of Alex Gong illustrate the need to understand how to defend against firearms - and how to avoid them. My instructors have actually required functional knowledge of rifles, shotguns, and pistols for instructorship levels in their schools since around 1992. Having seen and dealt with firearms on several levels, both military and civilian, I can say that the real danger is much the same as it is with knives. When a tool or weapon becomes more prolific or common, "experts" on them start growing out of the woodwork. In order to stand out in their fields, they often expound on all manner of minutiae in their self-protection courses. Unfortunately, the result of this is often exactly the opposite of what is intended. People get wrapped up in all the wrong things. "Combat" shooters start worrying about penny-sized groups from a standstill rather than center-of-mass accuracy on the move or from common realistic positions. You see silliness like "Position Sul" being taught in contrived scenarios rather than covering basic muzzle discipline and leaving it at that. On top of it all, shooters who are supposed to be training for realistic encounters are put on ranges with totally unrealistic rules and guidelines like unloading and safe-ing all weapons before moving on or off the line. They are so hard-wired into the range ettiquette and "safety" guidelines that they begin to fear the weapon. They get over-cautious. From a litigation standpoint, this is of course required. But from a tactical or practical self-protection standpoint, it's death. Training like you fight is exactly as true for learning to fight with a firearm as it is with hands and feet. "Safe" gun handling practices should be as close to reality as possible. If you make your weapon safe in the "real world" by putting it in the holster with a round in the chamber and the safety on, then that's what you ought to get used to on the range.

It's critical that new shooters get used to safe handling practices and basic marksmanship before moving on to more combative techniques. However, once someone starts to embark on learning how to handle a gun for self-protection, they need to approach the endeavor like any other form of self-defense or fighting. Be practical, no-nonsense, and realistic in training. Otherwise, it's all just useless, wasted motion.

Originally Posted by Little Apple

Do you guys think that gun defense needs to start being more in-depth?

I was just talking to a guy who was saying how some of the common defense techniques are dangerous on certain types of guns. It was his opinion that people in general need to know about the specifics of different guns: where the safety switch is on different models and how to know if it's on; where the pin release to eject the clip or release the barrel is; which guns can still fire after the clip is ejected if a bullet is already in the chamber, etc.

Those are all things that I don't know, because I don't know guns. I've had gun defense included in some of the places I have trained, and I've never been taught any of that.

Do you guys think martial art places that are geared towards self defense should be teaching this, or would you say it's not their place?

[Mike Brewer]

Oh, and in answer to your other question, self-defense schools have no business teaching firearms unless they are well-qualified to both teach and carry. It's up to you to decide if the instructor meets those qualifications.

[Ahsen]

Join the army

[Little Apple]

ha ha ^_^ I don't have a gun, nor am I planning on getting one. The conversation with this dude just made me think about all those gun defense techniques you learn in self defense classes. He was REALLY convinced that you can't teach gun defense without educating on all the above stuff about guns; that some of those basic disarms are dangerous depending on the model. Since I don't know anything about guns, I decided to ask about it.

My main question was whether you think self defense needs to expand to include basic fire arm knowledge. I'm not suggesting that all Aikido, Karate, and boxing gyms suddenly offer a gun class. Just wondering if some more specialized firearm knowledge should be taught in self defense centered martial art classes. Mike Brewer seems to be of the opinion that martial art places, even those that focus on self defense, are just not qualified to teach this. I could see where that might be the case, is that the general opinion?

[Mike Brewer]

I am definitely of the opinion that it takes specialized training to effectively teach firearms for self-protection, exactly as it requires specialized training to teach Muay Thai. If a gym owner lacks that specialized training, it's a lot like learning Muay Thai from a guy who's never done it. The only difference is that the result will kill you or land you in jail for the rest of your life.

[Ahsen]

join army noooooooooooooooow

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

ha ha ^_^ I don't have a gun, nor am I planning on getting one. ....

..... Mike Brewer seems to be of the opinion that martial art places, even those that focus on self defense, are just not qualified to teach this. I could see where that might be the case, is that the general opinion?

Short of wearing personal body armor and a ballistic helmet I'd say most gun defense is very dangerous. There is always a (slim) chance the armed attacker has no clue about his own weapon and some armed robery type felons might lack intent to actually use the weapon but you can't count on it. Learning to disarm a gun is easy, ACTUALLY disarming will be a HIGH ADRENALIN experience...

You might not even remember doing it after the fact...

There are only a handful of self defense type places in the country with real world experience and specialized training...

My e-buddy Mr. Q comes to mind (Peyton Quinn) He's a RBSD instructor there in Mike's part of the country (Colorado) see RMCAT...

[darrianation]

Learning the fundamentals is important if you wish to peruse firearms training. But seek out reputable instructors. Remember your local NRA class is not a gunfighing class but can teach you the basics of shooting. If you want defensive firearms training look for gunfighting instructors and not shooting instructors there is a difference. But before doing any gunfighting classes make sure you know your fundamentals.

[Mike Brewer]

Like knives, the basic concept is the same. The user (or defender) must become so familiar with the tool in question that it no longer feared out of habit, but seen accurately for its strengths and limitations. Someone who is reflexively terrified of a knife will never be very good at defending against knives. Likewise, someone who is gripped with fear or panic when facing a gun will likely freeze and fail in a gunfight. Training breeds familiarity, and so training is critical to effective defense against guns (or anything else). If you live someplace where guns are common, you're kidding yourself if you neglect to prepare for facing them. Even running away from a gun requires some knowledge that's unique to the tool.