MT: Trust or Fancying - Emotional Aspects of Training and Student/Teacher Dating

[Knowledge Bot]

Trust or Fancying - Emotional Aspects of Training and Student/Teacher Dating By tellner - Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:44:38 GMT

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I'm spinning this off from a thread in the Horror Stories section. The original is about baby rapers among the ranks of martial arts teachers. The risks are obvious. The kids are in a situation where some of the normal rules are suspended. There's a person who is a living breathing symbol of power and authority whose attention they are vying for at least some of the time. The teacher has a lot of unsupervised access to the kids. It's not that there are more pedophiles in martial arts than anywhere else, but the ones who are there are in a situation that's nearly tailor made for them.

But that isn't the main subject here. There's a similar danger with female students. I've known an awful lot of black belts who date, and some who sexually prey on, their students. It's not the same dynamic, but it's close. Here's someone who's powerful at least in the confines of the dojo and usually athletic. The women in the class are used to a fair amount of physical contact with them, more than with most of the men they normally deal with. Add in the guru/groupie factor which a lot of MAs play up and the picture paints itself in the frame.

I haven't taught martial arts to that many women, but I've had hundreds as students in self defense classes. There's a point in training where students, male and female reach a certain critical level of trust and comfort with the teacher. With men I've most often seen it as a willingness to take things on faith and a touch or more of subordination. With women I've often though not always seen it expressed as, how shall I put it, a softening. The barriers are lowered. There's an acceptance of authority, greater emotional intimacy and a large dose of trust.

This is the dangerous bit. It's a common part of the process of establishing a close student-teacher relationship. But a lot of instructors and a whole bunch of their female students mistake it for affection of a different sort and sexual attraction. I've seen teachers and students fall into relationships, almost none of which ended well. And I've seen straight male and lesbian teachers who either expected it as a perk of the job or actively preyed on their female students by exploiting the phenomenon.

Given the unequal power relation I put almost all the ethical burden on the teacher although most of us have met the martial arts groupie who is always up for getting another belt in her notch. Sorry about that. It's a hard line to resist

MTer bushidomartialarts says he forbids his employees from dating the mothers of his junior students. The term we agreed on was "hunting over a baited field"

So what are your thoughts on the subject? What are the dynamics you've seen in your martial arts career? Am I seeing the shape of this correctly, or does it sound like I'm smoking those funny cigarettes made of Mexican rope?


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[Red Rum]

I have found that in organisations I have trained with there are flipsides. One girl - Lindsey McConville was working her way up the heirachial tree in Kamon.
She began flirting with a lot of students when she first started. She then tried it on with more senior instructors. I rejected her advances and she got all funny about it/destroyed our friendship

In other organisations I have heard of senior ranked instructors using their authority to grope female students. It must be scary for females because there is a fine line between some techniques and inappropriate touching. In BJJ you tend to end up in all kind of weird positions.

I heard of one guy Tony Lloyd, instructor of 'Fighting Fit' who has a reputation for groping women and touching them inappropriately
I had a conversation with the manager of the David Lloyd Centre in Raynes Park who stated that Tony had been molesting his girlfriend during training sessions and that he wanted a new instructor

I think there are a few bad apples out there that make women feel uncomfortable in martial arts which is a shame.

In my classes, I tend to make sure that there are large groups of people around - that way people know that I'm not acting inappropriately. I am sure in smaller classes, private tuition sessions etc, a lot of things do go on.

It can be a hard job - if you are training a girl that you like, but you have to be professional. If you let temptation in, you shouldn't be an instructor

[Garland]

You're a martial arts instructor, not a therapist or a doctor. There are no "boundary" violations for dating a student or a co-worker. The instructor is (or shouldn't be...if you're that naive may you be taken advantage of and end up eventually in a middle eastern brothel) NOT in a position of elevated trust, and the rapport should NOT be such as to lead to anything sexual- unless both parties want it.

As for lesbian ma instructors taking advantage of their students...how many lesbian MA instructors are out there...and two...***** you for insinuating that men and lesbians take advantage of every situation we see to whet or sexual appetites.

* :fu:

[Red Rum]

Originally Posted by Garland

You're a martial arts instructor, not a therapist or a doctor. There are no "boundary" violations for dating a student or a co-worker. The instructor is (or shouldn't be...if you're that naive may you be taken advantage of and end up eventually in a middle eastern brothel) NOT in a position of elevated trust, and the rapport should NOT be such as to lead to anything sexual- unless both parties want it.

As for lesbian ma instructors taking advantage of their students...how many lesbian MA instructors are out there...and two...***** you for insinuating that men and lesbians take advantage of every situation we see to whet or sexual appetites.

* :fu:

I disagree...
If you are instructor, you are placed in a position of trust. It is not the same as a schoolteacher - your students aren't necessarily underage or 'innocent' etc, so most of them know if they are being harrassed!!
However, martial art teachers are still in a position of power where a student would feel awkward about confronting their instructor if they felt they had been unnecessarily groped


As for lesbian MA instructors - there are quite a few.
But this is a classic argument. There are many instances of homophobic jokes ('backs against the wall lads', etc), which assume that every homosexual will attack a straight guy. It is insane. If I am doing BJJ with a gay guy, I am not going to panic that he is going to sexually assault me!!

It comes down to the nature of the individual. There are people who do grope, but it doesn't matter what gender or what art they do. If someone is sick, then they will use their power

[Little Apple]

I would agree with that last statement.

Thankfully, I've never been in a situation like that (especially considering that my main instructor is my big brother, so if I was having issues it'd be a whole different piece of slime, lol), but I do know of a dude or two with the rep of sleeping with every female student he can. Even those that were in MA because they'd been assaulted in the past.

I don't personally object to "don't date where you train" rules. but I think a better option would be for people to understand that the world is not as safe- physically or emotionally- as it should be, and they need to be smart about their actions.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

but I think a better option would be for people to understand that the world is not as safe- physically or emotionally- as it should be, and they need to be smart about their actions.

Many women would benefit greatly from that knowledge...most predatory men (those involved in "hit and runs", so to speak) have a tendency to pick on women who are looking desperately for an emotional connection.
Some of the women even get to the point where they seek out physical interactions as a means of feeling close to somebody...which is pathetic. These women are the ones you see getting drunk and hooking up with random guys...the one's that always present themselves as being happy...and then they go home and cry their lonely asses to sleep if they come home alone.

People in general are fucked. It's somewhat hard to say which party in that instance would be exploiting the situation more...

It's that second existential dillema...being lonely sucks...and we will never be able to truly know anyone else, and when we die we'll be alone in it- eternally alone is our plight. People who can't cope drag each other down like crabs in a barrel in an attempt to deny or push this simple truth from conscious thought. It's mutual.

Men and women who abuse their position to get what they want through coersion deserve to be beaten publicly and put in the stocks.
Men and women who are naive enough, or downright stupid enough to trust these people, and surrender themselves to the former, deserve what's coming to them, their exploitation that is...and then they deserve to be mercilessly kicked. Hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes.

bottom line is... those who trust to that extent are more worthy of contempt than those who take advantage of them.

[Little Apple]

Not to be overly philisophical here, but: I think that compassion is a good thing. Not just kindness or sympathy which can be inappropriate to the situation, but compassion. I think compassion is rooted in understanding, and the goal would be to make the person or situation Be better, not just Feel better. That might mean "be beaten publicly and put in the stocks" but all the same I don't think contempt should be promoted in humanity.