MT: What do you think of men and women sparring?

[Knowledge Bot]

What do you think of men and women sparring? By kittybreed - Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:51:34 GMT

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We do a martial arts team sport where there are just not enough women and girls to have separate division for them. The girls that do play in the 14-17 division play with the boys and have to be good. What are your thoughts on this? The play can get spirited but these girls are good. Attached in an 8 second clip from a friendly practice.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rQYoHIaqQ3U&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355">


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[Knuckles&Knees]

My personal opinion is that male novices should never spar with females, especially if the females are better than them. To develop good male fighters, especially if they are somewhat shy boys or young men, you cause to much damage to their egos/confidence if you allow them to get outclassed or embarrased (sp?) by a person of the opposite sex.

Journeymen fighters, however, should be able to handle being beaten or outclassed by a female peer.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

To develop good male fighters, especially if they are somewhat shy boys or young men, you cause to much damage to their egos/confidence if you allow them to get outclassed or embarrased (sp?) by a person of the opposite sex.

Journeymen fighters, however, should be able to handle being beaten or outclassed by a female peer.

I disagree...gender roles are bullshit...if the men are that easily discouraged, they aren't meant to fight...
as a novice I got the shit kicked out of me at TWO different gyms by TWO exceptionally tough women...it probably helped shake me from buying into societal norms about what women are capable of...and in that respect, did me a great deal of good.

Ali Casey

YouTube - "Butterflies and Hurricanes" Clip 1

M'Lissa Kiser

YouTube - "Butterflies and Hurricanes" Clip 1

[GranFire]

Oh Garland, Sweety, where do you live?!

In some parts of the world a girl upping a guy on anything is still a big deal!

We spar trans-gender and across the ranks (but we don't go full contact anyhow). There is a difference how the new kids spar with a guy or with a woman - especially one that could be their Mom.

More experienced people should give the newbs pointers, not beat them up!

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by GranFire

Oh Garland, Sweety, where do you live?!

In some parts of the world a girl upping a guy on anything is still a big deal!

We spar trans-gender and across the ranks (but we don't go full contact anyhow). There is a difference how the new kids spar with a guy or with a woman - especially one that could be their Mom.

More experienced people should give the newbs pointers, not beat them up!

You spar trans-gender?
That sounds interesting. So you spar as a man spar and all the men spar as women?
Kinky

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Garland

I disagree...gender roles are bullshit...if the men are that easily discouraged, they aren't meant to fight...
as a novice I got the shit kicked out of me at TWO different gyms by TWO exceptionally tough women...it probably helped shake me from buying into societal norms about what women are capable of...and in that respect, did me a great deal of good.

That is your opinion, not one I agree with though.

Of my three nephews one is very shy but he is also the one out of the three that pursues any athletic endeavor whatsoever. He also takes the most interests in any boxing fundamental I try to impart on him. The other two nephews are less interested and the most daring out of the three (and he is pretty daring) does not care much for sports or learning any aspect of fighting.

Being male, and having lived in the "world" of males all my life, I'm aware there is a general belief that a person is simply born the way they are. Therefore more shy or timid boys are simply dismissed (same thing with men). My first boxing coach was adamant that: "Champions are made not born."

I will not glove my nephew up against a boy that really outclasses him in fighting let alone put him in a ring with a girl. Not at this point in his life. His ego and confidence must be raised, and it won't simply come from him, not on his own guidance that is, it'll partially come from the invisible hand of guidance from adults (or friends) in his life like me. That's what I'm here for. That's why God put me here.

Assuming I ever one day have some young fighters under my charge (not that I ever will) I will not abandon them to being broken, through humiliation, when they lack any mature qualities as a fighter or the mind of a journeyman. I'll leave that for those corners that simply are about exploitation of fighters and making profit.


As for your videos... they have nothing to do with my point nor the *sociological* realities of the world nor the psychological state of building Rangers or breaking men into slaves. And you can break boys and men... look at the historicity of slavery from China to the "New World" gender roles have always mattered. In the Eastern world they were found of castrating young men if they were enslaved. The word slave as you may know comes from the word "Slav." The Slavic people were at one time prized as slaves by the Arabs, in fact "Slav" became synonymous with "eunuch" with the Arabs.

Sociologist tell us that all domination requires submission by others through cooperation in the social structures. They tell us that domination - such as through the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade - relied less upon violence than mere acceptance by others in the social structures. Passive agreement if you will. This may shed better light on why black men were repeatedly humiliated before the eyes of black women. Psychologically many or most people begin to assume the ID's society gives them be it a "fag" or an emasculated heterosexual male. The many transsexuals of Brazil eventually adopt the "viado" or "fag" and "b***h" labels they are frequently called - this moves beyond fetish (S&M) into personal internalization and identification for them.

Society is not gender neutral and likely never will be. First of all sociologist, psychologist, and even the Catholic Church state or acknowledge that gender and sex are not the same thing. A person's sex is determined by their chromosomes (in terms of natural science [not social science per se]) but a persons gender is based upon behaviors and other factors. Therefore a person can be of the male sex but of the female gender. (the only disagreement the Catholic Church has on this is that it states a persons gender should match a persons sex)

The world will become gender neutral when both sexes dress the same, walk the same, and both use the same scents (perfumes/colognes), and when a boy kicking the sh*t out of a girl on a playground is considered as macho as kicking the sh*t out of a boy. Frankly, most the world will have to become bisexual, and more encouraging of women loosing their breasts to shrapnel on the battlefield for the absence of "gender" to occur in the world. I doubt that will be anytime soon.


Sorry for the long rant.

[GranFire]

Originally Posted by Ghost

You spar trans-gender?
That sounds interesting. So you spar as a man spar and all the men spar as women?
Kinky

Dorkazoid!

[Little Apple]

As a small point of interest K&K, there is a difference between "ego" and "confidence".

[treelizard]

Originally Posted by Knuckles&Knees

My personal opinion is that male novices should never spar with females, especially if the females are better than them. To develop good male fighters, especially if they are somewhat shy boys or young men, you cause to much damage to their egos/confidence if you allow them to get outclassed or embarrased (sp?) by a person of the opposite sex.

Oh, the poor baby boys. Someone needs to protect them.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

As a small point of interest K&K, there is a difference between "ego" and "confidence".

Noted. Gracias.

Sorry I didn't catch that.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by treelizard

Oh, the poor baby boys. Someone needs to protect them.

Seems to have worked well in most renown world military organizations for a long time. It also seems to have worked well in the sport of boxing for a very long time. Boxing coaches, good ones, keep in tune to the psychological state of their fighters. Traditionally in boxing boxing coaches attempt to protect their young novice pugilist in training from becoming "glove shy" which can result from getting outclassed in the ring before you have psychologically matured as a fighter.

I do not underestimate the power of the mind and heart, and neither did Bonaparte Napoleon author of the maxim, "The moral is to the physical what the three is to the one." He should know, he marched troops of the early financially broken Republic, barefoot for miles into combat, where he and his men earned victory not defeat.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Err... Correction: Napoleon Bonaparte.

I need more sleep.

[GranFire]

There is a difference between making a student a punching bag vs having a boy/man train with a female.

We had a kid perform dismal at a tournament. he was asked why he didn't spar to his ability "because it's a girl and you tell me not to hit a girl" "but you spar with the girls in class all the time" "but that is different, they are my friends"

The babe was 8 or nine at the time.

I am not a fan of the 'boy vs girl' form of motivation, though I guess the difference is there and obvious...but neither girl not boy needs to be pampered.

I see the trend that little boys are more aggressive and it takes the girls a little longer to get some bite...but after that, the level is pretty even...

[Little Apple]

I would say that it is very important to watch out for your new fighters. Confidence is essential, and becoming "glove shy," as you put it, is tricky to undo. However, this is where the difference between "confidence" and "ego" comes into play: because you also want to challenge your newbies, and every so often let them stretch outside their range (partner wise). To build and protect confidence, and yet still challenge them, you need to vary the skill level of their partners. This has nothing to do with gender.

I feel that it only pampers their ego never to let them be beaten by a girl. That in itself has nothing to do with being a good fighter. The confidence to get out there, lay it down, and keep going after a beating is important. Some kind of "girls are glass, and I'm steel" attitude never helped anyone.

[Knuckles&Knees]

Originally Posted by GranFire

I am not a fan of the 'boy vs girl' form of motivation, though I guess the difference is there and obvious...but neither girl not boy needs to be pampered.

I never said anything about pampering.

In fact I'm quite pleased in the way my nephew is coming a long in psychological terms. His sense of loyalty and courage is rising - according to what his father tells me. In fact one of my concerns now is that he might have to much confidence in relation to his actual fighting ability. Not many years ago he was willing to flee and was traumatized by one boy, now he is willing to fight a gang of boys in defense of a weaker friend.

His confidence right now I believe is disproportionate to his actual fighting abilities. He has not sparred at all and this is partially why his confidence is where it is at. He's not ready to spar yet, and the problem is if he gets in a street fight he's going to likely find out he's not prepared yet, and if I'm correct about his mind state, he may abandon all and any kind of fight training or knowledge from thence on.

There is nothing wrong with sensitive or shy boys. Groomed right they can develop into young men who in character, personality, and physical ability own the best of both worlds. They will be lionized, emotionally balanced and tender gentlemen, who can not only step up to do the right thing when it needs to be done but cut, slash, maim, and kill if need be. Rather than dismiss young boys like this you can develop them. It's a choice, and I've made my choice.

Anyways, I'm not so bad... from what I've read about the culture of Brazil, you have some men down there who refuse to allow their wife or any woman to lay hand on their child son (spanking). Their intent being to raise their sons *cocky* - heavy with Latin machismo. (Of course you have some men in Brazil who will allow their son - if they have not abandoned him - to be sexually abused by other older boys or men)

Talking to me on this is like talking to a brick wall. I will not abandon my nephew to humiliation. Like an NCO in the Corps once came to me basically asking I sell my troops out to a working party of his pleasure just because we're fellow NCO's and happen to have the same rank, "it ain't finna happen," I basically told him, so he had better switch to his next plan. He hated me for the rest of our time at the company.

So it is, so shall it be.