Morality and Weapons

[Michael Wright]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

You're fcked.

I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

- The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
- They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
- They are incredibly unfortunate

Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

Lol.

OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.

I say yes, women are safer armed than not.

Is it a bad idea? Not at all. What's the other choice? Should she comply with the felonious intent of her attackers? Lie down and ask them to rape her gently???

I say give her a knife. If she can inflict serious trauma on ONE of them it might be easier to convince the others to take their buddy to the ER.

I'm sure I've said it before but most BAD guys want an easy victim, not a FIGHT. The presence of a weapon can tilt the balance of power in many situations.

Is there a chance she'll be disarmed... Sure. (that's why many cops and folks who are serious about self protection carry a back up weapon)

[Clubber Lang]

Originally Posted by Michael Wright

You're fcked.

I try not to bullshit people, especially about self-protection. When people come to me and present a scenario like that, I tell them straight. Outnumbered, outweighed and outgunned is a no-win scenario. People who say otherwise will be teaching you using rare and extreme examples, and that is misleading people. Unless you are exceptional, don't listen to exceptional circumstances.

The question I usually ask is, what is it you are doing in your life that leads you to believe this is a situaton you will encounter? 99.99% of people will never experience this situation. The remaining 0.01% will do so because of:

- The job they do, therefore they will be trained and probably well armed
- They make very bad lifestyle choices, so you reap what you sow
- They are incredibly unfortunate

Thoughts about the latter just breed paranoia, like should I walk round carrying a weapon? If you were ever really that unlucky, then yeah having a weapon is better than no weapon. The question is, do you want to carry a weapon every day of your life just in case you walk round the corner to meet your doom at the hands of 5 thugs? I don't train in speedo trunks every day, just in case I get jumped at the pool. I just don't have the package to pull that off.....if you'll pardon the expression

Its not no win, I know plenty of people who have faught and bet multiple opponents. Whats wrong with carrying a weapon every day anyway? All the stuff about lifestyles and will you ever face that theat, you just say the same things all the time.

[Michael Wright]

Shut up you crazy fool!

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Although not intended as one I will take your last point as a compliment, I do say the same things all the time, because I hold a consistent point of view. Good Self Protection is first and foremost about lifestyle choices and reaching a position of confidence and security. Bad Self-Protection is breeding paranoia and infecting people's minds with unrealistic expectations.

There, I did it again.

The scenario presented to me by Little Apple was multiple opponents all bigger and heavier than you, in my experience I class that as no-win. You say you know people who have succeeded, thats cool. I suspect they or the situation was exceptional, or you are talking about some Doormen buddies who have thrown a few people out of a bar.

[Clubber Lang]

if you are taking about 5 or 6 guys then OK, you don't stand a chance. I'm talking about guys who have faught 2 people, thats multiple opponents, and they used a weapon to their advantage. One guy I know used a blade on two people in a bar and came out without a scratch on him.

[Michael Wright]

So the guy you know, was in a bar where he felt the need to carry a blade, and sure enough he was attacked by two people.........can you see where I'm going with this?

Look to bring this all back to Little Apple's question. If you are a woman who is minding her own business and really happens to be that unlucky to face 5 big guys then yes of course, grab the meanest fcking weapon you can find and do whatever it takes to come out alive. My point was twofold:

- If you are smart and lead a normal life it is incredibly unlikely you will ever face that scenario
- If you do for whatever reason, then weapon or no weapon I think it is equally unlikely you will prevail

You can call that cynical, from experience I believe its just reality.

[Odd-toed]

I think that if you carry a weapon you are pretty much opening yourself up to your opponents and giving them the opportunity to use it against you! Unless you are seriously sh*t hot at using a weapon then you have immediately introduced a lethal object into a situation which the opponents facing you may not have even thought of, and you just handed it to them on the plate. In this situation your heart will be going nuts, you will be dealing with all kinds of emotions and feelings and if you seriously believe you can pull this off then I want to train with you!

As a woman I carry a metal kubitan and I do have more lethal weapons in my car (!?! – there is a logic there I promise), I have spent a long time learning how to use my kubitan because although I known this can be used against me, but here’s another woman’s logic, I view the kubitan as less lethal than a knife, all I want to be able to do is hurt the opponents enough to leg it, not kill them and a knife immediately puts that situation on the table. My view is you carry a knife you have the intension of using it and knife fights can go very very wrong, very very quickly! and you could end up killing someone instead of just hurting them.

Introduce any weapon into an already emotionally charged situation you will always run the risk of it being used against you.

[Garland]

Most situations can be avoided through common sense...others can be avoided through the use of good communication skills (knowing how to be assertive, yet assuage another party...or be able to present yourself with an air of strength to dissuade would be assailants.)

Still...if you are unlucky, unfortunate, or living the type of lifestyle that raises the odds...you need to smarten up, and -to quote Chopper Read- "harden the **** up".

I certainly think that somebody who knows how to use a weapon can easily get out of a situation with multiple, larger attackers...

Cut and run. If you know the slightest bit about weapon retention, and you are aggressive enough to actually use the weapon instead of holding it out to be taken, then...yeah...you should be able to escape from that type of a situation.

If you jump up the level of force on a group of assailants who didn't think they'd have to deal with one of their friends bleeding out, you've essentially turned the tables on them psychologically. There goes their espirite de corps, their morale. Make them worry about getting their buddies to the hospital.

The whole thing is- YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO GO THERE. Don't carry a knife if you won't use it...because they might be willing to use it on you, and they will likely overpower you and take strip it from you.

[Little Apple]

Good responses! To clarify my example: When I told guys to picture fighting multiple opponents who were all at least 2 weight classes above them, I was trying to drive home the reality of the size ratio that a woman would face. You guys are bigger than us.

I very much agree with you all that the first step to staying safe is to not put yourself in dangerous situations.

I also personally think that if you are trained in a weapon, and willing to use it, you are better off having it if you are out numbered. Like I said: one of the big reasons I don't carry a knife is that I don't think my skill (or lack thereof) warrants it.

So what are your opinions on Mace? The spray of course, not the spiky club. I personally don't see any moral reasons not to use it. But I'm not sure it has much fear power, and I feel like people would be more willing to try overpowering a woman with Mace than a woman with with a knife or something.

[Mike Brewer]

My opinion on mace and other chemical sprays like OC are that they just aren't enough by themselves to stop anyone who seriously wants to harm you.

Evidence forthat can be found in the training programs for these tools. Usually, training programs require that an officer is sprayed in the eyes and then perform several combative tasks like delivering knee strikes, punches, and elbows, effecting a takedown and arrest (handcuffing), then locating a gun that's been dropped and "covering" the subject. If every single person that takes the class is expected to do all of that after being sprayed, what does it tell you about the chemical's ability to stop someone?

When I went through the OCAT course, it hurt, but I did the big motor skill movements (knees, elbows, etc.) and had no trouble with the fine motor skill movements like handcuffing. The pain was present, and my eyesight was affected, but it was not enough to stop me or the other 30-some people in the class.

Classes like this take place all over the country, and generally every cop you see carrying pepper spray has had to go through the same thing, so that means each one of those people is someone pepper spray didn't disable.

Something to think about.

Also, I think the concern about giving up your weapon and having it used against you is wrong-headed. Training in a weapon's use is what keeps that from happening, and the determined application of the weapon against an assailant goes a long way too. Just reaching out and taking a knife away from someone is not easy, and it is made exponentially more difficult when that knife is being directed at you with bad intentions.

I was at a seminar in Jacksonville Florida back in maybe 1996 assisting Paul Vunak. He wanted to make the point about knives being "equalizers" and so he picked one of the little girls sitting on the sidelines (she was maybe 10?) and handed her a pair of dry erase markers. She was to draw lines on anyone that tried to get near her or take her "knives" away. He then picked out several of the black belts in the school (I believe it was eight or nine guys, but my memory of the event has faded some) and circled them around her. Whenever one of them got close, she carved him up. If they reached for her to grab and take the markers away, she drew all over their hands and arms. She got grabbed a few times, but she just cut her way loose. While these guys were not hitting at her, the point was made. She was a little kid, and she was surrounded by many many trained, large, strong, capable men. Advantage: blades.

And she was an untrained little girl.

A trained woman with a determined spirit and a real understanding of what's at stake would likely do far better than the little girl playing a game, and she'd likely not have to face nearly so many attackers.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

My opinion on mace and other chemical sprays like OC are that they just aren't enough by themselves to stop anyone who seriously wants to harm you.

Amen. In fact...let's see some demonstrations of this point...

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

funny dialogue...

[DickHardman]

i always carry a knife on me, if not two. just in case, i mean you never know right?

a friend of mine asked me why i carry a knife, i told him for self defense. i the asked him why he didnt carry one. and he told me that he gets emotional and stupid during confrontations, and that he knew that if he were to carry one there would be a chance of him using it on someone over something stupid, so he he refrained from carrying any kind of weapon. this guy doesnt train.

i asked another friend of mine why he doesnt carry anythig for self defense. he told me that he had had a gun a pulled on him 3 times in his youth, each time it was someone taking his money. he told me that each time, he made it home safe because he did not fight back and complied with the robber, and that he feels carrying a weapon or trying to use one may just end up getting him killed instead. he has no training but has been in a number of serious fights and bad situations.

[DickHardman]

i just ordered one of these...

YouTube Video

[Little Apple]

And there we have the word on pepper spray ladies and gentlemen. Good info guys, thank you!

Where did the women go on this forum? I've heard lots of comments on weapons from the other women in the past.

But back to the morality question. I know this is one that may never be resolved, but: Is it morally right to carry a lethal weapon? Leave aside for now whether or not the person is going to be damaged emotionally forever. When there are so many bare handed systems one could learn that would keep you safe, should we be out there using firearms or blades?

[DickHardman]

Originally Posted by Little Apple

And there we have the word on pepper spray ladies and gentlemen. Good info guys, thank you!

Where did the women go on this forum? I've heard lots of comments on weapons from the other women in the past.

But back to the morality question. I know this is one that may never be resolved, but: Is it morally right to carry a lethal weapon? Leave aside for now whether or not the person is going to be damaged emotionally forever. When there are so many bare handed systems one could learn that would keep you safe, should we be out there using firearms or blades?

let me remind what kind of people lurk out there....

YouTube Video