Morality and Weapons

[Little Apple]

So as a point of conversation: I know several martial artists who, after learning a bit about knife work, stopped carrying a knife. They weren't willing to take the risk that they would kill someone. One of these people actually stopped carrying a knife after he DID kill someone. (4 armed men jumped him).

My question: What do you think of that choice? To deliberately not carry a legal weapon that you know how to use? Is is moral and responsible? Is it foolish and idealistic? What do you think?

[Garland]

He probably realised that he would've survived and all four of the guys who jumped him would have too if he hadn't used the knife. He may look back on the beating he would have taken and think that it would've been considerably better than taking another human being's life away.

What is it in some people that allow them to take somebody else's life with little to no pains and pangs of conscience, and others to battle with their actions for the rest of their lives? I think that's a pertinent question.

In my very humble opinion:
If you knowingly cannot use a weapon designed with the express purpose of taking another's life without it ruining the rest of yours...you shouldn't carry it. If you take somebody else's life and can't live with that, you're essentially walking wounded for the rest of your days.

You should NOT carry a knife (or any other lethal weapon) without understanding the repercussions of using it, and being prepared to live with whatever decision you make.

[Michael Wright]

Great question and great answer from Garland. Nothing to add to that response.

Quick recommendation:

There is a fantastic ten-minute section at the start of Rick Faye’s Knife DVD, where he goes through this whole thought process in detail, and it is brilliantly explained. Anyone who carries a blade or is thinking about it should get a copy of the DVD. The section in question is probably the best ten minutes of knife instruction I have ever seen.

[Mike Brewer]

I think this is one of the better questions on any forum here, as a matter of fact. One of the more relevant, too.

I have some moral issues with the knife as well, because I've been very personally involved with the aftermath of knife attacks. I hate to sound like a candy-ass or anything, but after seeing so many people layed open or stabbed to death, the sex appeal of knives just went away for me. It was made infinitely worse when I'd attend workshops or seminars and I'd hear people talking casually or even cavalier about gutting people like fish or stabbing them in the heart and dumping their guts out on the floor. Having seen the human cost up close and personal, I found it deeply offensive. Likewise, I have a similar moral issue when it comes to firearms. I have also seen that aftermath, and in poignant fashion. I don't want to get too graphic here, but for the sake of making my point in a few minutes, I think this lends some gravity. I was working in the E.R. of our area's trauma center one morning when a woman was wheeled in by paramedics. Her head was mostly missing, the face blown away from the lower nose upward, and the skin and remnants of her forehead and skull flopped down over her mouth and cheek. The bowl-shaped depression that once sat behind her face was a mass of grayish pink with clumps of everything from eyeball to clotting blackish blood. Her brown hair, still pulled back in a pony tail was eerily neat and tidy, and the contrast of that tidy hairstyle with the grisly mess in front was disturbing. I was posted at the head of her gurney with another security guard at the door of the room. There was some concern that she'd been shot in the face by her boyfriend, and since he was still at large, our presence was a standard precaution. The lady was a drug addict, and she was around seven months pregnant. The medics had been pumping away on her chest, knowing she was long gone, but doing what they could to keep blood flowing to that baby. When she was laid up on the table, the doctor quickly gloved up and grabbed a scalpel. He literally slashed her belly open and dragged the baby out. It was so quick and "unsurgical" it made me stare. He saved the baby's life, such that it was having a drug addiction, a dead mother and a murderous father to grow up to. But when it was all over, there the woman lay, face blown into small tatters of meat and bone, belly gaping open like some kind of lipless mouth where there shouldn't have been one. I had to stay in the room with her body for another half-hour or so, and I couldn't help but stare from time to time at the wreck on that table.

That was certainly not the only time I saw such things working there, but it was one of the more impressive in terms of the emotional content of the experience. The human cost was made all the more prominent by the little baby pulled from the woman's body, already with three strikes against him.

Try listening to someone talk about a "cool new knife move" after that.

I still carry knives and guns for self-protection. I don't have a moral issue with doing so, and I think it's ignorant and stubborn not to see that they are some of the very most effective tools one can have for self-protection. However, I do not support the cavalier, aloof attitude shown by so many in training to use these things. When people don all sorts of "tactical" gear and get together to talk about hacking people up and stabbing them in their vitals as if it's some kind of hobby like bowling or crochet, I think it's disgusting. I think it's borderline sociopathic, in fact. There's nothing at all wrong with using weapons to protect you, and there's nothing wrong with training in their use. In fact, if you're going to train in their use, I think it would do most people well to get a clear picture of what they're training and have no illusions about the cost - both to the user and to the enemy.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that I have no moral issue with people carrying and using weapons. I think it's up to each of us to draw our own boundaries and decide what we're willing to do in our own defense. If someone can't make their own life more important than the idea of killing another person, then it's a decision they have to make for themselves. Personally? I don't care how gruesome or tragic someone else's death is. If it's in my own defense, the thought of my son growing up without a father, my wife growing old without her husband, and my not being there to see either of them far and away outweighs my moral opposition to killing. I don't take it lightly, and I reflect on those bodies and victims I saw/heard/touched/smelled during those years in the E.R. I think about putting someone else there, and it allows me to really define what's worth fighting over and what isn't. I think about someone putting me there, and the lines become even clearer.

[GranFire]

Wow.



Well, I don't carry weapons...a pocket knife maybe for the McGyver-ness (I keep missplacing it..I am useless..)

The Gentleman who stopped carrying a weapon after he had used it in ernest may very well suffered some type of post traumatic stress disorder. We are - in this society - no longer trained and accustomed to bloodshed and death.That is the domain of a few, like emergency responders (and I heard it suggested that even in copper/bronze age times the psychological impact on the war faring men was known)

However I do believe that those individuals spouting off about the effectiveness of a certain technique in all it's gory glory have never been closer to real blood then maybe a blood drive...or the quick prick in the finger at the doctor's office. They sound a lot like Robin Williams in 'Survivors'....

[Mike Brewer]

That was a great movie!

Gran Fire, I think the wisdom of your post is near universal. It's so very often the case that those who profess and posture and try the hardest to be seen as the "tough guys" generally aren't.

It's the guys who blend into the wallpaper you have to watch out for...

[Garland]

Brewer...poignant post.
It won't let me rep you again, but just know that there is so much wisdom and candid, horrifying truth in what you say that it chills me to the bone.

In martial arts circles, there is always one or two clowns in a class that will start either joking around when they're doing knife work or will make light of what they are learning.

Quite frankly...that mentality scares the shit out of me.

When I train knife, I take it VERY seriously, and I try to consider the consequences of my actions and the effects of the knife (not only physically, but psychologically for myself, and also for the grief and gravity of the action upon the other person's family and friends). Joking around with a training knife seems sick to me.

I think it should be necessary in teaching the knife to step in when students do that and tell the people- "you are dead, you just bled out. you will never see your family again, you will never hold your child, everything is over for you." and conversely, "you just took another human being's life away. (reiterate the consequences) You will have to live every day with the consequences of this decision, especially if you end up going to prison for it." Make sure to elaborate that these things, these constructs such as death, killing, prison, and forever have little meaning until they are felt first hand.

I think the lesson I'd take from Little Apple's friend is- when do you just take a beating as opposed to escalating to the point where somebody is likely to lose their life or be maimed (one way or the other) for life?

[Mike Brewer]

Thanks Garland. my post was not meant to scare people off of weapons training. In fact, very much the contrary. Weapons can take a pretty horrible toll, and since they are prevalent in attacks in today's society, we should learn as much as we can about them. You cannot protect yourself from the unknown, and no amount of moralizing will keep you alive if you find yourself staring down a gun barrel. You flat out need to know what to do. However, I really advocate realistic and responsible training, as I do with everything else martial. That means dealing in the reality that there are consequences to what we do, and to what we allow to occupy our mind, body and soul during training. Accepting that we are working with life and death subject matter, it is unrealistic in the extreme to deny the true nature of what that means. That's true even if it's just done to make the training less grim. Making a knife thrust to someone's heart and slashing out their guys is unsavory business, and a "reality based" martial artist ought not try to make it less so in order to sell attendance to class. There's the moral issue for me.

Again, though, even with the personal experiences I have (to a large degree because of them) I choose to carry, and I choose to acknowledge the real-world consequences of the decision to use what I carry. I know that if I fail in a life or death situation, it's my carcass on that E.R. slab. I know that it's my family parading past my body in tears because I didn't have the will or fortitude to save myself. The flip side is that I recognize what it means to draw a weapon and go to work on someone with it, and that single factor has kept me out of more fights than anything else. As a moral consideration, I am not willing to take on that kind of karma unless it really is me or him. The reality of the situation and the gravity of the consequences has a sobering effect on the ego, and I think it should. Only once ego is removed can you really decide what your own morals will allow.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

I know that if I fail in a life or death situation, it's my carcass on that E.R. slab. I know that it's my family parading past my body in tears because I didn't have the will or fortitude to save myself. The flip side is that I recognize what it means to draw a weapon and go to work on someone with it, and that single factor has kept me out of more fights than anything else. As a moral consideration, I am not willing to take on that kind of karma unless it really is me or him. The reality of the situation and the gravity of the consequences has a sobering effect on the ego, and I think it should. Only once ego is removed can you really decide what your own morals will allow.

Is there any way to impart this to your students, or do you think that for somebody to truly recognize that type of gravity, they have to see and/or experience the repercussions of violence first hand? I think the main problem with EVERYONE in this day and age, especially martial artists, is EGO. How do you train that out of somebody?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Garland

....
When I train knife, I take it VERY seriously, and I try to consider the consequences of my actions and the effects of the knife (not only physically, but psychologically for myself, and also for the grief and gravity of the action upon the other person's family and friends). Joking around with a training knife seems sick to me.

I think it should be necessary in teaching the knife to step in when students do that and tell the people- "you are dead, you just bled out. you will never see your family again, you will never hold your child, everything is over for you." and conversely, "you just took another human being's life away. (reiterate the consequences) You will have to live every day with the consequences of this decision, especially if you end up going to prison for it." Make sure to elaborate that these things, these constructs such as death, killing, prison, and forever have little meaning until they are felt first hand.

.....?

Not many people have a realistic understanding of the kind of trauma that can be inflicted with a blade. It is VERY important to understand the irreversible moral and ethical (and legal) consequinces of using any deadly weapon.

Not only that but the sanguinary mess that goes so often without saying.

Blood pressure will have a new and graphic meaning if you ever slice a living "target"...

Makes me nauseated just thinking about it.

We live in a sick world but I'd rather have blood on my hands than be caught unarmed in a moment of need.

[Mike Brewer]

Originally Posted by Garland

Is there any way to impart this to your students, or do you think that for somebody to truly recognize that type of gravity, they have to see and/or experience the repercussions of violence first hand? I think the main problem with EVERYONE in this day and age, especially martial artists, is EGO. How do you train that out of somebody?

That's truly the million dollar question. My current answer is that I don't train civilians to do it anymore. They most often just don't want to understand it the way I need them to, and showing them the grisly reality of it all would turn them off of training. If someone comes to me and asks to learn edged weapons or firearms, I almost always direct them to someone else. I send a lot of people to the Sayocs, Atienzas, and to the Warrior's Way group(s), but it's just something I don't do anymore.

As for soldiers (which really is the only group I've worked with since coming to the decision not to teach publicly), I can show them footage, pictures, etc. We run cutting drills that kind of bring it home. I once had a group set up to go see a hog butchering, but it fell through. A good old-fashioned country hog butchering is a painful thing to watch, because pigs just don't like the idea of letting go. They scream and yell and bleed something fierce. Watching it is a good way of getting the "squeamish" to come to the top, and when it does, talking about things like "Imagine your child making those noises because you didn't have what it takes to protect them," or "Imagine you're the one holding the knife and it's a living breathing father of two under it" have a more pronounced impact. But again, that's just not cricket in terms of the American gym-going public.

As for ego, the only way I have ever found to get rid of it is to confront it over and over again. Most of the time, this can be done on the floor, but in extreme cases, it's a good idea to take someone out of their element. I've done everything from weekend survival camps to teamwork drills ot get there, and I've had some pretty good successes. I've also failed utterly in other instances. If you want to talk offline about it, I'll get more specific, but like I said, almost all of this kind of stuff has been done for soldiers and I don't want to take away from the main idea of the thread by diverting.

[Garland]

I believe that training the knife in earnest requires a certain type of psychological toughness and intestinal fortitude.
Using it, even more so.

The action of driving a knife into somebody is probably pretty straight forward...it's everything else that goes along with it that make training the knife such a "moral test", as I've heard person after person describe it.

As I see it, there are different people that will use a knife in a fight:
-those who lose it in an argument or impulsively, reactively use a knife. Even in a prison situation. (hotheads)
-those using a knife with the intent to kill from the onset, or as a psychological threat to usurp another person's belongings, to rape, etc. (criminals and sociopaths)
-those who use a knife in a minor assault for self defense without understanding the implications. (unlucky good guys)
-those who use a knife in self defense under conditions that warrant its use and who are unprepared psychologically for the implications. (PTSD cases, walking wounded)
-those who use a knowingly use the knife in self defense or combat under conditions that warrant its use and who are fully prepared to deal with the consquences. (military, leo, or very, VERY conscious civilian martial artists)

In order to hurt another human being that way, and walk away from it without destroying yourself...you need to be able to justify your course of action...and I think it's that justification that borders on sociopathology. Murdering somebody outright and being okay with it, and ending somebody through self defense and being okay with it seem to fall pretty close together.

I think that you would have to be truly callous not to feel anything...and I believe that it is the ability, the capacity for true guilt and remorse that seperate inherently good and genuine people from hardened criminals and the truly villanous.

The only way that we as martial artists get around this in training is by detatching ourself to some degree from the meaning behind what we are doing...we intellectualize cutting this and that, but I think few people actively vizualize it and consider the consquences in terms of human drama and the psychological cost.

I carry a knife...but I think I'd have to be completely lost from reality or in truly dire straights to ever use it on another person. To be candid...I could see myself using a knife on somebody in an altered or detatched state (an example would be stumbling across an attempted rape where the person posed no threat to me) and being fine until I had time to reflect upon it. And THAT scares the shit out of me. I think that everybody has a certain potential for psychopathology similar to anti-social personality disorder, and I know that all the empathy and sensitivity I embody could go out the window in a second under the wrong circumstances. Because I know these triggers, which are highly unlikely for me to encounter...I can justify ethically carrying a weapon.

When would you lose your shit? Is there a situation outside of self defense where you might kill another person? Ask yourself these questions honestly without giving the socially OK knee-jerk reaction. How about hurting yourself? These are important questions I don't think enough people reflect upon adequately...look at the gun deaths in this country...most are suicides...others are due to EGO and PRIDE.

[Mike Brewer]

Is there a situation outside of self defense where you might kill another person?

Sure. Service to my country or community.

Cops are forced all the time to make those kinds of decisions, and in some cases, they are not the ones being threatened. Likewise, as a soldier I had to train and mentally prepare for everything from lining a guy up in my sights and shooting him to calling in artillery or air strikes on his house. If I had it my way, the bastards never would have known I was there. I can't really call that self-defense. It's war.

I know what you mean, though, and I hope sincerely that the answer is no.

[Little Apple]

Wow. Really great responses. I have to say I'm impressed by the depth of your comments Garland- Well done!

I myself do not carry a knife. I don't think my skill level warrants it, and I don't want to take the risk that I provide my attacker with a weapon. My Step-dad trains the police though, and he keeps saying that he wants to put me through firearms training and get me a permit. I'm not sure what I think of that. So far I haven't, but he insists I take the training even if I never own a firearm. I think I would be ok with that.

I think I agree with Garland's first post. You need to know yourself, and know where you need to draw the line for the sake of living with yourself.

[Little Apple]

A-a-a-a-a-a-and Dead thread!

Lol.

OK, so here's another question: referring to my comment about not wanting to provide my attacker with a weapon- and seeing as we're on the women's forum- do you think women are actually safer carrying a weapon, or not? Is the possibility that they will be out massed and disarmed sufficient to make having a weapon a bad idea? To get a perspective on this for the guys: think of fighting multiple people who are ALL at least 2 weight classes above you.