Just the Facts

[Tcell]

Repent.
We are all very bad men we hurt women & men.
Even those of us that don't are bad because we don't do anything to prevent/help the situation in a 'politically correct' manner.
We should all aspire to be like Lorne.

Is that what you wanted to hear?

You come over as a right tosser.

A lot of people here have probaly trained & trained with women to help them deal with bad situations.

A lot of people here have probaly battered blokes for messing around with women.

Men & women get attacked all the time,mainly by men.
We as MA's train to try & help people deal with these events.
We also train people, as it is an individuals right to protect themselves male or female.
We try not to run around blaming random people for other individuals actions.

What is your deal?

Jez

[terry]

Originally posted by RBFC
I can't believe that defend.net continues to allow this type of posting, using up bandwidth, while it doesn't allow enough room for me to post (internationally well-received) pictorial sequences of women's SD scenarios!

Lee, I'm not familiar with what you weren't allowed to submit. Let's take that offline. In general, I'm all for you making constructive contributions.

I would be inclinded to move this to the 'Open Access' forum since it does not pertain much to WSD. But I need Tim or Ryanhall because I'm not a mod on this part of the board.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I'll be a mod.

[lorne]

Hello Again,


What is most troubling is that you guys, who claim to know what you are talking about, are apparently not willing to face the facts:

"Your thinking does not contain room for another possibility: that most people, yes, even men, are decent folks, and few among us either condone or conduct the kind of violence for which you so relentlessly condemn us...Nobody likes to be unjustly accused"
(Terry)

The United States Department of Justice documents that:
In 8 out of 10 cases, a woman recognizes the man who attacks her (this means that the majority of men are participating in the violation of women who think they can trust us. Why do they think this? Because they believe Terry's myth: that only a few deviant, strange men commit violence against women)

The Justice Department documents that women are most likely to be raped and/or murdered by a man that they know- their lover, husband, male relative, male neighbor, male work associate, male clergy, male teacher...

THAT'S US GUYS....not a small number of deviant social outcasts who roam the country striking at random (though those men certainly do their part)

I am not sitting on my throne condemning you...I am you. I am simply challenging you to educate yourself in the facts of OUR violence against women, children, and each other.

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for doing something to stop the violence.


I acknowledge those of you who stated what you are doing to this end; however, your posts reflect that you have not done your research/ Please read some of the Justice Department's reports, visit Men Stopping Violence (and similar programs); volunteer with your local crisis centers, shelters, victim witness programs, etc.

Sincerely,

Lorne Coleman

[Thai Bri]

"LESS THAN 2% OF RAPE REPORTS ARE FALSE REPORTS"

Lorne. I know this to be totally untrue in the UK. Totally. And I would be amazed if the US stats were all that different to ours. You have all the zeal of a religeous man who "knows" that Charles Darwins theories are wrong, and that Adam really was the first man on the world. And that Noah really did save all the anilmals, two by two etc etc.

Rape is a terrible crime. The misinformed, emotionally charged, politically correct nonsense you espouse works AGAINST reducing it.

You are well intentioned, yet dissillusioned. You are trapped in a world of self deception, selecting "truths" that suit your argument, and rejecting REAL truths that don't.

The entire structure of your arguments are based on false foundations and, as such, come crashing down in the minds of everyone but the similarly poisoned.

No offence Lorne, but perhaps you should change your name to Loone.

[terry]

Originally posted by lorne
The United States Department of Justice documents that:
In 8 out of 10 cases, a woman recognizes the man who attacks her (this means that the majority of men are participating in the violation of women who think they can trust us.

No, it means exactly what is says: that means that in 8 out of 10 cases, a woman recognizes the man who attacks her. Where is the Justice Department statistic that says all men, or even the majority, participate in the violation of women?

Why do they think this? Because they believe Terry's myth: that only a few deviant, strange men commit violence against women)

This is a poor attempt at putting words in my mouth. Stated as such, I would disagree with the so-called 'Terry's myth'. What I am saying is that because some men are criminals it does not follow that all men are criminals.

The Justice Department documents that women are most likely to be raped and/or murdered by a man that they know- their lover, husband, male relative, male neighbor, male work associate, male clergy, male teacher...

Agreed.

THAT'S US GUYS.

Wrong. I haven't attacked anybody. You consistently make a leap that is not supported by the evidence you sight. You nullify the possibility of the man who is innocent of violence. And by making an unjust claim maligning the integrity of these men you loose the support that would otherwise be easily yours.

The kind of self-blame that you project onto all men doesn't just occur spontaneously. What happened to you to cause these feelings of guilt and self-loathing?

[RBFC]

This argument is a classic case of statistical facts being "twisted" to suit a party's political agenda.

While it may be true that 80% of rapes/attacks are committed by a man the female knew, the REAL fact is that most men still do not commit such acts. In 2001, the last completely compiled year for statistics, the DOJ reported 90,000+ forcible rapes. If 80% of those were committed by men the victim knew, that makes 72,000 "known-man" attackers. HOW MANY MEN ARE THERE IN THE U.S.?

There are over 150,000,000 men in the U.S. This (and others may check my math) means that 0.048% of men are "known-man" attackers. That comes down to mean that approximately 1 in 2000 men commit this crime. The true number may be even less, since some men are multiple/repeat offenders. Also, there are cultural/ethnic variations in the "acceptability" of forced sex by a boyfriend, etc. Therefore, these numbers may not translate well into the general population anyway.

Compare that number with the % of men who have been jailed for "other" crimes, and you'll see that the incidence of this type of crime by males is far lower than others. (Not that any incidences are acceptable.)

In the quest to secure a unique and female-popular "platform", Lorne has bent the truth to suit his own agenda. Seeing how defend.net is supposed to be a Self-Defense forum, I personally can't see how this type of misinformation can be permitted.

Lee

[sk12879]

I have done my part to help the cause. I do not rape women nor do I commit any other types of violence towards them. I cannot change the actions or thinking of my neighbors or the guy walking down the street. As Terry has so easily pointed out, your argument assumes guilt on the part of all men, however, it appears to be your guilt laid onto all of us.

Step down off your soapbox and read your argument objectively, rather than subjectively. I believe that the presentation of your argument (accusations against the whole of the male species) has prevented anyone from seeing your point of view.

[terry]

Originally posted by RBFC
There are over 150,000,000 men in the U.S. This (and others may check my math) means that 0.048% of men are "known-man" attackers. That comes down to mean that approximately 1 in 2000 men commit this crime. The true number may be even less, since some men are multiple/repeat offenders.

I don't know the statistics. There might be some way to figure in for other crimes (sexual harrassment, menacing, etc.) as well as under-reporting. But even if the number were a factor of 10 higher that would leave 199 innocent men for every man that commits an offense. That's still quite a few people that stand unjustly accused by extremists of this kind.

Terry

[Wearing Grey]

Quote from Lorne:
"WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for doing something to stop the violence."

Oh ok, I was not aware of that. Let me go get my Batman uniform on and prance around the streets to look to stop the violence. Better yet I will be Superman and will just fly around and dive bomb on people.

WE are responsible for nothing. There is no WE. I am responsible for myself and my GF. You are responsible for yourself and whom ever your loved ones are. You are also responsible for aggravating people with dumb threads blaming things on people who you do not even know. And generalizing men as a whole.

You want a challenge??? How about this. I challenge you not to say any thing else as stupid as you just have. On the other hand, if you would have said "Anyone care to join me in this matter" You would have probably gotten a better response.

You want to STOP THE VIOLENCE??? Good, go have fun superhero. Tell Batwoman I said hi, if you see Hulk tell him you need some help saving the world. As for me, I am going to go train.

Another Quote from the dingbat.
"Your anger and defensiveness only serve to condemn you."

Great, can I have fries with that???

WG

[Thai Bri]

I love statistics. I remember one I read in MacDonalds. It was about their burgers and read "All our beef is 100% beef!".

Great. But note that it didn't say "All our burgers are 100% beef".

The real meaning is that there is a teeny weeny bit of beef in each burger..... But that teeny bit of beef is 100% beef.

Brilliant. Loone could get a job with them any day.

Dick head.

[dimo]

http://www.hopeforhealing.org/myths.html

I can't believe that you are actually fighting about the stats that change from year to year. Women learning self defense is a great thing... but, won't change the reality. (no amount of self defense protects you from the date rape drug)

Lorne's message was misguided but on the right track... I agree with all of you that men shouldn't be expected to accept responsibility for crimes they do not comit... but Lorne's point, I think, is that having the courage to stand up and say that this sort of behavior is wrong would go a long way to preventing alot of the "date" rapes out there...

you see two men clearly getting a woman rip rouring drunk at a bar ... the situation feels wrong to you, what do you do?

My Aunt was raped in a bathroom at frat house... many people around outside of door... she was screaming... not one person tried to stop it! Why? People make excuses, men and women alike, for not stepping in when they, in their gut, know that what is going on needs to be stoped.

More people need to be pro-active, men and women alike, so that this sort of crime can be less common.

[sk12879]

Originally posted by dimo
http://www.hopeforhealing.org/myths.html

I can't believe that you are actually fighting about the stats that change from year to year. Women learning self defense is a great thing... but, won't change the reality. (no amount of self defense protects you from the date rape drug)

Lorne's message was misguided but on the right track... I agree with all of you that men shouldn't be expected to accept responsibility for crimes they do not comit... but Lorne's point, I think, is that having the courage to stand up and say that this sort of behavior is wrong would go a long way to preventing alot of the "date" rapes out there...

you see two men clearly getting a woman rip rouring drunk at a bar ... the situation feels wrong to you, what do you do?

My Aunt was raped in a bathroom at frat house... many people around outside of door... she was screaming... not one person tried to stop it! Why? People make excuses, men and women alike, for not stepping in when they, in their gut, know that what is going on needs to be stoped.

More people need to be pro-active, men and women alike, so that this sort of crime can be less common.

And that, I will agree with. I would never stand back and watch a man beat or rape a woman. A better point for this thread would have been "No one (male or female) should allow a fellow human being to be mistreated if they know that said mistreatment is occuring."

As has been pointed out earlier, men are not the only perpetrators of violent crimes. Men are beat by their wives quite often, yet the crimes go unreported or the police don't even bother. I've read the story of a guy that was repeatedly physically assaulted by his wife. He had the intelligence to not hit her back....your wife could be standing over your comatose body with a bat and if you've touched her at all violently (even if she started it), you'll be the one hauled off (yes, that's probably an exaggeration, but you all get the point). He had called the cops, but every time they showed up, she was Ms. Sweet and Innocent again and nothing was ever done on any of the 5 or 6 occasions he had called. Let me hear ya say "That ain't right!"

[Thai Bri]

THAT AIN'T RIGHT!

But only in the sense that you are clearly making it up.

[sk12879]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
THAT AIN'T RIGHT!

But only in the sense that you are clearly making it up.

Just read it last week. Now if I could only remember where I read it. It's true...it happens. I don't think I'd be able to sit around and take a beating though.