I ran, and I'm proud of it

[kengar]

I was only kidding bro! Of course those classes have helped millions of women and given them an awareness that wasn’t even being addressed by society in previous generations.

Can I call a mulligan here. I have a better understanding of what you're saying now. Thank you for the clarification.

[Tom Yum]

The only incidence I know of is the road rage one BB archives 92 or 93? Did she publish these other ones in BB or another mag?

[osopardo]

Originally Posted by mrniceguy148

Hi Kengar

This touch-me-and-you-die mentality might be fine for a guy who’s big and powerful enough to deck a person with one punch. However, that type of cowboy mentality doesn’t fly with most women such as my wife, my two sisters and my mother. None of these women are either powerful enough or trained well enough to ever deck a guy with one punch, blow out his knee-cap or drop a guy with a kick in the balls. So due to the fact that their physical options are more limited, then so are their strategic options.

...until she sees that starting to happens she should be concentrating on de-escalation and reestablishing her personal space in a physically non-violent manner; and there are many effective ways to do this that are less likely to provoke the guy into resorting to physical violence himself.

if a person should ever threaten me to the point where I need to consider the possibility of having to defend myself then losing isn’t an option.
Mr. Niceguy

Avoidance and de-escalation are valid techniques for everyone cronfronted with potential violence. I think where you and I differ is in determining when that is no longer a valid option. I disagree with your view that since a woman is less capable of defending herself that she must put off that course of action as the very last resort (by then it may be too late). A big strong guy can afford to delay the violence because he is more likely able to recoup and fight back after he's been attacked. A woman (or any other person who may be smaller, weaker, etc.) must use the pre-emptive strike after a specific number of warning signals have been received which are not the same as the signals I can afford to have on my longer checklist by virtue of being large, fit, male, trained, etc.

Scenario 1: My attacker takes a swing at me and lands a good hard strike which stuns me. He follows up with a barrage of blows designed to keep me down. My training, adrenaline, anger, outrage, etc. kick in and I fight back.

Scenario 2: My 72 year old mother's attacker takes a swing at her and lands a good hard strike which stuns her. He follows up with a barrage of blows designed to keep her down. She is physically unable to respond. The beating puts her in the hospital or kills her.

or

Before he has an opportunity to even come close enough to touch her she proactively defends herself and increases her chances, no matter how small, to escape.

[gregimotis]

Osopardo and I are on the same page here. It isn't that I feel women shouldn't try try deescalate a situation, it is that I feel once a woman is grabbed, her physical defense options begin narrowing at the speed of light. The second a potential assailant has a hold of her she can no longer run, also she cannot dodge or block a strike, and also it becomes harder to set up a good punch/kick while the assailant can affect her balance. Finally, he can strike her at any time or simply tackle her. In other words, once he makes physical contact, she has lost whatever control of the situation she might have had.

That covers the physical aspect of the grab, but just as importantly is the motivation of the suspect, or rather her guess about his motivation. Were these guys dangerous? They were following women around, not leaving when asked, and then they grabbed her. They were acting dangerous, and they were escalating from talk to action - I say, the woman involved had reached they point of no return. The very next escalation was going to be an attack, not more talk.

Lastly, consider the risk/ reward here. If she was right and that guy was about to attack her, then she did the right thing, she got away. If she was wrong, and that guy was just a complete idiot who meant no harm, then he got kicked in the nuts for nothing, but he'll survive. To put it another way, it was here and her friend getting beaten/raped/killed something along those lines VS. A guy getting kicked in the nuts and learning a hard lesson about boundaries.

I just don't think you're argument makes sense 148. We all prefer de-escalation, but the line was crossed when she was grabbed because any further escalation would put her in a hopeless postion.

AND EVEN if everything else in this post is off the mark, there is still this: Unless those guys had IQ's of 10, they should know better than to start trouble with random people. If you go around messing with snakes, don't complain when you get bit.

[kengar]

It isn't that I feel women shouldn't try try deescalate a situation,

Thank you guys, this is what I was getting at. I myself would not just automatically take physical action if I could walk away from a situation.


Ken

[mrniceguy148]

Originally Posted by kengar

Can I call a mulligan here. I have a better understanding of what you're saying now. Thank you for the clarification.

Fair enough! Although I’m embarrassed to say that I’m not sure that I know what a mulligan is?

[mrniceguy148]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

The only incidence I know of is the road rage one BB archives 92 or 93? Did she publish these other ones in BB or another mag?

Hi Tom,

I’m not sure exactly where I read those two stories. On occasion I’ll buy an issue of Black Belt and/or Karate Illustrated so maybe it was in one of them, although the local auction where I buy this stuff also carries back issues of lesser known MA mags so I really can’t narrow it down to easily. I’ll look into it and let you know if I find something……..

Mr. Niceguy

[mrniceguy148]

Originally Posted by osopardo

Scenario 2: My 72 year old mother's attacker takes a swing at her and lands a good hard strike which stuns her. He follows up with a barrage of blows designed to keep her down. She is physically unable to respond. The beating puts her in the hospital or kills her.

or

Before he has an opportunity to even come close enough to touch her she proactively defends herself and increases her chances, no matter how small, to escape.

Hi osopardo,

I know we’ll never agree on this, but outside of a domestic violence situation where the guy is just out to physically beat the women for no reason; in most other cases the guy is after either money or sex so if she pretends to cooperate with him and wins his confidence she’s buying time and if she can get close enough to him she might really be able to take him out with a solid shot to the eyes or the throat. However, what you’re saying is if mom’s one in a million prayer of a haymaker, groin kick, or whatever doesn’t work then she’s left with nothing else except to take her punishment for pissing the guy off. Hmmmmmm………. I wonder how many bank tellers and store cashiers have been needlessly shot because they did something to make the criminal panic?

Mr Niceguy

[mrniceguy148]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

If you go around messing with snakes, don't complain when you get bit.

Hi Greg,

This statement can cut both ways!

As the situation turned out it had the best possible outcome, but it could have just as easily been disastrous. Do me a favor and go back and reread HKC’s account of this incident and then compare it to my alternate ending below and then tell me what your opinion would be if this had happened instead?:

Let’s say that HKG misses with the groin kick and as a result the guy she tries to kick gets so mad that he knocks her down and then he kicks her in the face causing her a fatal brain hemorrhage (a realistic possibility since he was a foot taller than her). Now, here comes that teacher and the security guard just in time to find HKC near death and lying face down in the dirt. And then let’s say that it comes out in court that the other two guys weren’t really sold on the idea of hassling these girls to begin with but they went along anyway just to see what would happen and to keep an eye on their friend. In that case don’t you think that if HKC hadn’t tried to kick the guy then she might have actually survived the ordeal without having to fight? Don’t you think that HKC created a do or die situation that didn’t exist yet, and may never have occurred?

This is exactly why you want to put off “the fight” for as long as possible; and those girls still had time!
I’m 46 years old and the three lessons that I’ve learned over and over again in my lifetime are:

1) There’s a right way and there’s a wrong way.
2) Patience is a virtue, and
3) Don’t fight the war if you don’t have the guns!

Personally, I didn’t see very much of #1, #2 or #3 coming from HKC and that’s what bugged me about this situation. HKC and her friend got away with one here and they were very lucky! I don’t know what else that I can say about it………..

Mr Niceguy

[kengar]

mrniceguy
Mulligan - a free shot sometimes given a golfer in informal play when the previous shot was poorly played.

Since I misinterpreted your statement, I was taking back the attitude I displayed toward you.

[osopardo]

Originally Posted by mrniceguy148

mom’s one in a million prayer of a haymaker, groin kick, or whatever doesn’t work then she’s left with nothing else except to take her punishment for pissing the guy off.

Originally Posted by gregimotis

...once a woman is grabbed, her physical defense options begin narrowing at the speed of light. The second a potential assailant has a hold of her she can no longer run, also she cannot dodge or block a strike, and also it becomes harder to set up a good punch/kick while the assailant can affect her balance. Finally, he can strike her at any time or simply tackle her. In other words, once he makes physical contact, she has lost whatever control of the situation she might have had.

"Nice" options!

[Les]

quoted by gregimotis

"In other words, once he makes physical contact, she has lost whatever control of the situation she might have had."

sorry but i have never heard such a load of crap in my life. your saying that once a lady is grabbed she has nothing.

that is bad advice my friend

Les

[osopardo]

Originally Posted by Les

quoted by gregimotis

"In other words, once he makes physical contact, she has lost whatever control of the situation she might have had."

sorry but i have never heard such a load of crap in my life. your saying that once a lady is grabbed she has nothing.

that is bad advice my friend

Les

No, I think he's saying that once she is grabbed, she has lost control of the situation. At that point, her best chance to regain control is violence, which up until then she had been trying to avoid.

[Les]

ok thanks

but she has not lost control of the situation either, unless unconcious (spelling).

she can still use verbal to lift his ego and lower his guard, she will always have two chioces, do what he says or control the situation and fight back. when his guard has lowered, then the physical retaliation can commence, she has to pick the moment. not every one will fight back but thats where traing comes in, but you have got to be brutal

best wishes

Les

[gregimotis]

Les, you are correct, I mis-worded that post. A person always has some options.
Oso, thanks for clearing it up.