Judo -- self defense

[Thai Bri]

Can someone pass him the banjo?

HAW HAW HAW!

[falcon3624]

and whilst you are getting me the banjo get my good cop freind here a doughnut........better make it a dozen........we know how the cops love their doughnuts.

[MrPoopy]

Who says Judo isn't good for self defense?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Falcon:
although Bri put it sarcastic he did have a point, even though you trained a lot more than usual, how has it proven itself?
you do not get much chance to prove it appart from maybe steath and I wouldn't really call that H2H, would you?

[NWPTrainer]

Good evening gentlemen. I was not gonna post on this thread originally. I saw what could have been an interesting post regarding the merits of Judo for self-defense training, so I looked at it. Then I saw someone make a post that claimed, inadvertantly to have credentials from the military special operations community that were obviously bullsh*t. I decided I had to respond.

It really doesn't mean dick in the real world, but since it pertains to the conversation, I am a veteran of the Ranger Regiment and Special Forces. I served seven years on active duty, before a medical discharge due to a broken hip, incurred during an airborned operation.

I am also a lifelong martial artist. I have trained in Taekwondo, Filipino martial arts, WW2 Combatives, BJJ, Judo, and the current combatives program developed by SFC Larsen.

THe following are my thoughts on the fraudulant claims previsously posted on this thread.

Originally posted by Falcon
Anyone that has been through the special ops hand to hand combat course will tell you that there are many different martial arts that are combined into one and BJJ was the main source for the grappling techniques and Judo played a role in the takedown area.

No we won't. The current program developed by SFC Larsen is based on Gracie Family Ju-Jitsu. THe takedowns are straight out of their book, as are all the other unarmed combative portions of the curriculum. I am not getting into the merits of that here. There is another thread on this website devoted to it.

Lizard, sometimes there are missions that are supposed to be in and out and you end up being able to get out. When something like this happens and you have limited supplies sometimes you have to adapt. A good example is what happened in the Mog. Like I said, we before we did a lot of hand to hand and knife training. Sometimes when you are doing recon and stuff like that you might only have 2 people with you and have around 100 enemies around you might not want to shoot your rifle into the air and let them know you are there. In a situation like that it helps to know how to sneak up on someone and kill them with your barehands or your knife.

First of, don;t even bother menrtioning Mog. You weren't there. You have no idea what happened. I don;t care how many times you read the book or watched the movie. If you weren't there you don't know. I've seen the after-action reports and the aerial video, and I don't know. Don't try and use that argument.

Second. The recon statement was funny. According to Army doctrine, "recon," or surveillance missions are carried out in six-man elements. Whether it is a split ODA doing strategic reconnaissance, a Ranger Reconnaissance detachment, doing the same, or a Long-Range Surveillance team doing a static surveillance, they are working in a SIX-man team. Not three-man teams, six. Even in a sniper team, there are not three men, but two. Sniper and Spotter. That's two, not three.
If you were compromised and surrounded by "100 enemies" you are right. You probably don;t want to shoot your rifle in the air. You want to shoot it at the bad guys. In a situation like that, knowiung how to kill with your barehands isn;t what is gonna save you. All those long PT runs are what will save you. Mission is compromised, your job becomes exfiltrating with what intel you were able to get befpore you screwed up. I presume you were thinking sentry neutralization? While it's possible that you MIGHT get to use your unarmed or knife killing skills, it's doubtful. Missions that require that skillset are planned for. Your unit will be carrying a suppressed firearm for that purpose.

[QUOTE/] Why don;t you go find an army ranger or a green beret and go pick a fight with them and see how it comes out....[/QUOTE]

Please don't. First off, the ranger will probably get in trouble for getting in an alchohol related incident and thrown out of Regiment. Second of all, a green beret is a hat. The guy that wears it is a Special Forces soldier. He's proabbly mature enough to offer you a beer instead of fighting you.

[QUOTE/] Maybe I should have explained myself better in the first post but I wam, work and was trying to type up something fast. I don;t think the special ops hand to hand combat is the 'ultimate' fighting style even though that's the way they view it. I would have to say that it is very devastating though. It is very fast paced and jeyed on destroying your enemy as quickly as possible (with one strike or move if possible). Most guys that serve in special ops are excellent hand to hand fighters because they spend alot of time practicing with these parts of all these different styles.
I rely alot on what I learned going through the hand to hand course when it comes down to a street fight and I have not found another single style that can compare to the speed and effectiveness if military hand to hand combat.[/QUOTE]

Ignoring the contradictiosn on whether or not you believe it to be the most effective art, lets look at the falshoods in this statement.

Most guys in special ops do NOT spend any appreciable time training in hand to hand. Even at Regiment you get it in RIP. Then you might get another dose occassionally for PT. It is not a regular part of training. There are too many other, far more important skills to practice.
The guys that do train do so on their own, like I did. There are also lots of young guys in these units that don't. In fact, most don't. Most would rather spend their free time chasing girls and getting laid. That's the way it should be too. They are good brawlewrs because they combined the principles of speed, surprise, and violence of action (the fundamentals of all warfare,) with an extreme level of fitness. All the fights and brawls I saw and participated in as a young private were far more about nasty ear and eye gouging, hooking and jabbing, and rolling on the ground wrestling for an improvised weapon of some sort.
You mention this special ops hand to hand course you attended. I would be interested in knowing exactly where you atended it at? There isn't one, outside of SFC Larsen's combatives institute at Benning. I am sure you didn;t attend that, as it is far too new.
The reason I ask is that you said you had a GT score of 98 out of 100. The Max score possible on the GT Test is 135. IN order to serve as an 11 series MOS you must have a minimum of 100. IN order to work for the Ranger Regiment, you must have a minimum of 110. The Regiment is the ONLY unit in USASOC that has 11series personnel. So, where were you at that you attended this high-speed course?

[QUOTE/] ...we practiced everyday and that was at least for an hour everyday. We also travelled alot and we trained with military division all over the world as well as having various martial artists from all over the world come to us to train and fight...this program is highly advanced and I assure you it does work. As far as I am concerned the special ops hand to hand combat course is probably the most deadly self-defense/offense style that I have ever seen ands I have seen just about every kind of martial art out there.[/QUOTE]

Again, you are full of it. You spent an hour every day training in unarmed combat? How did you go to the field? How did you have time to train for the MET-L (mission essential task list)? How did you have a full complement of personnel? If this program was SO dangerous, there must have been lots of training accidents...not too mention the casualties involved from fighting all those martial arts masters from all over the world...

Falcon my boy.....You are full of it. THrough and through.

There is no secret Special Operations martial arts program. Special Ops soldiers, like the SF soldier that won a SIlver Star recently for killing an Afghani unarmed, are able to do so, because they combine an extremely high level of fitness with the attitude that "Ain't no Mofo, or no ten mofos gonna stop me from completing my mission!"


Toudiyama asked:
"How oftne do you get to test it in real combat? Has it proven its effectiveness during thise real combats seeing the other side will be trained in H2H combat too?"

The new system has been used in the "Stan and in Iraq. It worked sometimes. I'm sure at other times it didn't. It really is more about the individual soldier than the art. AS for other armies being trained in H2H...that too is largely a myth. Some very few elements of the old Soviet army may have had some SOMBO training.....Most are too hungry to worry about it now. The CHinese may do some martial arts.....no one is really sure what level is involved though. The North Koreans are famous for supposedly studying Martial Arts. They are starving. Who cares if a guy is a tenth degree black belt if he is so hungry he can;t throw a punch?

As for Judo...

Judo can be an extremely beneficial part of the self-defense arsenal. It is a sport, and was developed as such. The issue is however, that it is an extremely physical sport. It does employ combative principles that are still valid whether sport or real-world. Yes, you have to learn to employ strikes to benefit it, but that doesn;'t reduce the value of Judo as a p-art of the arsenal. If you look at Judo books from the World War Two era, they incorporated strikes.

Is it the end-all, be-all? No. It is though, a very effective self-defense art. Incidentally, I do not study Judo. My exposure to the art was a former platoon sergeant that was a 3d degree and taught some basic throws and stuff when I was a private.


RLTW

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for filling us in NWP trainer.

I've had the pleasure of meeting folks who were either Army Rangers or Navy Seals and what I've found is that they are not gung ho bragadacio types; rather extremely focused, can do types that won't even talk about their experience unless you stumble across it. Most aren't excessivley huge guys either, rather average build but have immense will power and toughness.

[falcon3624]

I went from benning to hood to pok. I did learn a few judo throws though, we learned some simple stuff like the foot wheel, knee wheel, one arm shoulder throw, hip wheel, minor outside hook, etc.....most of these techniques from judo I learned at polk. I got transfered there because I needed to be closer to home. Alot of the stuff they did over there was trying to teach you how to occupy an area with crowds of people that did not want you to be there. They taught us some of those techniques to help in removing people that were getting out of hand without shooting them.

[Thai Bri]

Now thats a bit of a weak response to what was posted by NWP trainer.

Fancy pretending to be some kind of special ops soldier. You sad twat.

[drocb]

so it seems, most agree judo can be quite beneficial to self defense, accept for 2 people.. I am with the majority.

[falcon3624]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer
The current program developed by SFC Larsen is based on Gracie Family Ju-Jitsu. THe takedowns are straight out of their book, as are all the other unarmed combative portions of the curriculum. I am not getting into the merits of that here. There is another thread on this website devoted to it.

You are going to tell me in that in your training in the military you were never taught striking techniques? or some basic throws? bull....I know that you did learn some striking techniques and that would be hard to learn straight from the gracie book because the gracies dont focus on striking that would have to come from another art.

First of, don;t even bother menrtioning Mog. You weren't there. You have no idea what happened. I don;t care how many times you read the book or watched the movie. If you weren't there you don't know. I've seen the after-action reports and the aerial video, and I don't know. Don't try and use that argument.

You're right there. I really don't think anyone knows what happened there accept the guys that were there. I have seen material about the incident, but it was just used as a general statement.

Second. The recon statement was funny. According to Army doctrine, "recon," or surveillance missions are carried out in six-man elements. Whether it is a split ODA doing strategic reconnaissance, a Ranger Reconnaissance detachment, doing the same, or a Long-Range Surveillance team doing a static surveillance, they are working in a SIX-man team. Not three-man teams, six. Even in a sniper team, there are not three men, but two. Sniper and Spotter. That's two, not three.
If you were compromised and surrounded by "100 enemies" you are right. You probably don;t want to shoot your rifle in the air. You want to shoot it at the bad guys. In a situation like that, knowiung how to kill with your barehands isn;t what is gonna save you. All those long PT runs are what will save you. Mission is compromised, your job becomes exfiltrating with what intel you were able to get befpore you screwed up. I presume you were thinking sentry neutralization? While it's possible that you MIGHT get to use your unarmed or knife killing skills, it's doubtful. Missions that require that skillset are planned for. Your unit will be carrying a suppressed firearm for that purpose.

I suppose that members of a team cannot be seperated at any time during a mission? What if you are on a mission and you are moving to a forward position and only 3 men make it before cut off for whatever reasons? Well, then you only have two men with you. I agree that is is an unlikely scenario, but possible. Saying the numbers 2 and 6 are not very accurate either. I guess we forgot about MOUT training. In MOUT training infiltrating building (breech point) we worked in 4 man teams. 1. Second in charge of team. Duties include frontal entry and entry way security. 2. Entry clearing. Directly behind entry soldier. 3. Team leader. In some situations they use the 3rd man as the breech man which uses shotgun, mechanicl, or explosive means for entry. 4. Automatic rifleman equipped with m-249 SAW (squad automatic weapon) and is usually last man in.

Please don't. First off, the ranger will probably get in trouble for getting in an alchohol related incident and thrown out of Regiment. Second of all, a green beret is a hat. The guy that wears it is a Special Forces soldier. He's proabbly mature enough to offer you a beer instead of fighting you.

Do you really believe if he went and picked a fight with a ranger or a green berret he would walk away from it. I think we both know what happens when someone picks a fight with them.

The reason I ask is that you said you had a GT score of 98 out of 100. The Max score possible on the GT Test is 135. IN order to serve as an 11 series MOS you must have a minimum of 100. IN order to work for the Ranger Regiment, you must have a minimum of 110. The Regiment is the ONLY unit in USASOC that has 11series personnel. So, where were you at that you attended this high-speed course?

He said something about my ASVAB score. That's what the 98 out of 100 is.

Again, you are full of it. You spent an hour every day training in unarmed combat? How did you go to the field? How did you have time to train for the MET-L (mission essential task list)?

When I was at Polk the only real quality time we got in the field was during war games. Most of the other time was spent on PT and general training.

The new system has been used in the "Stan and in Iraq. It worked sometimes. I'm sure at other times it didn't. It really is more about the individual soldier than the art. AS for other armies being trained in H2H...that too is largely a myth. Some very few elements of the old Soviet army may have had some SOMBO training.....

The russians do have a hand to hand combat course. It's not Sambo I believe it is called Spetsnaz and mainly focuses on disarming and disabling several armed attackers at one time. Hand to hand combat has it's place for certain situations. A hand-to-hand combat can break out in the conditions of limited visibility (at night, in smoke conditions an so on), in a forest, destroyed buildings, trenches, underground communications and constructions and etc.

[Kingston]

ok falcon........i was almost 100% possitive that BJJ (gracie jujustu) does have strikes.....they just didn't focus on them as much as other aspects.

the main form of hand to hand combat used by the russian army IS called sambo......depending on how elite you are you may have more indepth versions of SAMBO (combat sambo, more advanced level is Systema) Basicaly you have Sambo the combat sport, as you up the ranks, it become less and less sport orientated. Note: this is by no means a complete explanation of the russian armies hand to hand stuff.

SPETSNAZ is the most elite group in the russian military....

basicaly what you said in your last paragraph was as crazy as:

" i beleave the US has a hand to hand combat course...its called Delta force"

ALSO your discription of what you call "Spetsnaz" was incorect.

i like this game. NWPTrainer aint the only one who can play

[BJJ_White_Boy]

I have video's from Rickson's class's. He teaches you basic punching and kiking with a little knee and elbow work. But when he does teach striking, he teach's a lot of the ground fighting. How to do it effectivelly and how to avoid it. Again, I got this from a couple of video's from his class's, and it's just my opinion.

[falcon3624]

My instructor recieved his black belt in brazil. When he moved to the states he trained under Rickson and has a purple belt under him. He teaches zero striking in our class. The only striking we learn is MT and that is from the other instructor who is a instructor in MT.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by falcon3624


You are going to tell me in that in your training in the military you were never taught striking techniques? or some basic throws? bull....I know that you did learn some striking techniques and that would be hard to learn straight from the gracie book because the gracies dont focus on striking that would have to come from another art.

I did not say I never learned to strike. In point of fact however, the current program DOES involve striking, and it is derived from the Gracie program. THe Gracies do teach boxing punches, knees and elbows. ONce again, you are speaking of something you know absolutely nothing about, beyond what you apparently read online or in Black Belt magazine.



[QUOTE/]You're right there. I really don't think anyone knows what happened there accept the guys that were there. I have seen material about the incident, but it was just used as a general statement.[/QUOTE]

Don't. You are not fit to clean the Somali shit off those mens' boots. In point of fact, the way you tossed the remark into the post, it was implied that you were a Somali vet. You need to keep that in check.




[QUOTE/]I suppose that members of a team cannot be seperated at any time during a mission? What if you are on a mission and you are moving to a forward position and only 3 men make it before cut off for whatever reasons? Well, then you only have two men with you. I agree that is is an unlikely scenario, but possible. Saying the numbers 2 and 6 are not very accurate either. I guess we forgot about MOUT training. [/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct that SERE situations might opccur that would result in a unit being broken up. ONce again however, the post in question said, or implied, that your unit was training to conduct three man recon missions. THis is doubly ironic since at Ft. Hood, they are Mech units...meaning they ride around in Bradleys and Abrams...Ft Polk is OPFOR. I know you weren;t doing some high-speed counter-terrorist missions there. Or, did the Pentagon suddenly decide that the 509th was the ideal anti-terrorist unit in the army?

As for your MOUT statements: Yep, Army doctrine revolves around a four-man entry team. THat is the key ENTRY-TEAM. You have obviously forgotten about your support by fire elements and all the other entry teams. Once again, you've tried to weasel your way out of stupid statements by making up silly stories and bending the truth to suit your stories. Must suck to have someone blow them out of the Bayou water.



[QUOTE/]Do you really believe if he went and picked a fight with a ranger or a green berret he would walk away from it. I think we both know what happens when someone picks a fight with them.
[/QUOTE]

Again...The beret is a friggin' HAT! Anybody can beat up a hat. As for whether he would get beaten by a ranger or a SF soldier? Who knows? If he did get beaten, it would have a lot less to do with a special secretive fighting art than it would have to do with overwhelming aggressiveness and fitness.



[QUOTE/]He said something about my ASVAB score. That's what the 98 out of 100 is. [/QUOTE]

If your spelling ability online is any indication of your intellect, this is another lie.




[QUOTE/]When I was at Polk the only real quality time we got in the field was during war games. Most of the other time was spent on PT and general training. [/QUOTE]

Gee, I thought you said you were doing H2H an hour a day...THat doesn;t leave much time for training. I have a lot of friends that were with the 509th. All they do is bitch about how much time they spent in the field playing OPFOR. THose "wargames" are anything but games. As an OPFOR soldier, you should know that. I think the closest you've come to being in the Army was buying a pair of used BDUs in Leesville. The only time you;ve ever been on Polk was for deer hunting, wasn't it? It crakcs me up when people talk smack about how special there military service was. Especially when they get questioned on it, and can;t get the facts about being a leg infantryman correct. There is no shame in not having been a soldier dude. The shame is in pretending you were. If my service meant a thing in the civilian world, I'd be happeir than Hades. As it is, it doesn;t mean a thing. My DD214 and $0.50 will make a phone call -as long as it's local.




[QUOTE/]The russians do have a hand to hand combat course. It's not Sambo I believe it is called Spetsnaz and mainly focuses on disarming and disabling several armed attackers at one time. Hand to hand combat has it's place for certain situations. A hand-to-hand combat can break out in the conditions of limited visibility (at night, in smoke conditions an so on), in a forest, destroyed buildings, trenches, underground communications and constructions and etc. [/QUOTE]

Once again you don;t know what you are talking about. Spetsnaz is an acronym based on the Russian words for Special Service Troops. SOMBO/SAMBO/Etc...Is the name of a style of fighting developed by the Soviet Army for their troops. As for Spestnaz being the ultimate killing machines, once again, most people are buying into the hype of the guys trying to sell a product. Is it a solid fighting system? Sure, but not because it has some secret moves that the rest of the world cannot figure out....Have you ever seen video footage of the Russian Army practcing H2H? They have a good fighting system because they practive full-contact, full-speed. The old Soviet army factored in as many os 20% casualties during TRAINING exercises. They didn't care if they screwed up their people in training, because they were expendable.

Moreso, Spetsnaz were not all some elite Delta Force/SEAL/Ranger force. Most were more along the lines of the 82d Airborne or the 101st. They got roughly the same kind of training as those guys do, except they never got it to as refined a level. THe Soviet strategy...in fact the Communist strategy period...has always relied on numbers over tactical considerations. Look at the Eastern Front in WW2....The Koreans and Chinese in our war in Korea, etc.......They were not even too concerned about technology. THey knew they could throw enough bodies into a hole to fill it. All this hype about how awesome and ferocious Spetsnaz was is hilarious. I've seen ads that proclaim that even the SEALs and Rangers and SF, etc, were terrified of Spetsnaz. Horsepucky. They may have been respected as worthy adversaries, and given the chance, they would have been shot from an ambush...just like any other enemy soldier.

RLTW

[falcon3624]

I did not say I never learned to strike. In point of fact however, the current program DOES involve striking, and it is derived from the Gracie program. THe Gracies do teach boxing punches, knees and elbows. ONce again, you are speaking of something you know absolutely nothing about, beyond what you apparently read online or in Black Belt magazine.

I don't know what the current program involves but I was told that there were strikes that came from TKD in the program so I assumed that was where they came from. I do train in a BJJ/MT gym now and the instructor like I said got his black belt in Brazil and when he moved to the U.S. he trained under Rickson Gracie. I have never trained with Rickson but my instructor has a purple belt under him and he bases most of what he teaches off of his system and he includes no striking techniques. As far as what the videos and books say I don't know because I have never read them, I have been too caught up in the gym learning it for real.

Don't. You are not fit to clean the Somali shit off those mens' boots. In point of fact, the way you tossed the remark into the post, it was implied that you were a Somali vet. You need to keep that in check.

This statement goes both ways because you don't deserve to lick the shit off their boots either. The statement was not implying that I had been there.........That would be impossible being that I turned 18 in 1996. Maybe you should spend less time assuming. I never said I was there and if you think I implied it you are wrong. I don't remember telling you that I served in the Rangers, as a matter of fact I know I didn't tell you that because I never served in the Rangers. I knew some guys that were in the Rangers and trained with some but I never served in the 75th.

You are absolutely correct that SERE situations might opccur that would result in a unit being broken up. ONce again however, the post in question said, or implied, that your unit was training to conduct three man recon missions. THis is doubly ironic since at Ft. Hood, they are Mech units...meaning they ride around in Bradleys and Abrams...Ft Polk is OPFOR. I know you weren;t doing some high-speed counter-terrorist missions there. Or, did the Pentagon suddenly decide that the 509th was the ideal anti-terrorist unit in the army?.

Once again you assume me saying something. I never said we trained in 3 man groups. I simply said you might be in the feild and only have 2 other guy with you. This is a rather general statement and could mean that you have been seperated from the other personnel in your group or that maybe they are deceased. I never said that we were doing high speed counter-terrorism missions anywhere so you are just putting words in my mouth. I told you that I got transfered to Polk because I needed to be closer to home. I told you that we did not do much in the feild training there as well. There were units there that spent lots of time in the feild but mine was not one of them. I am sorry that not all units operate the same but that's just the way the balls rolls. Just about most of the time I got to spend in the feild was riding in the bradley.

As for your MOUT statements: Yep, Army doctrine revolves around a four-man entry team. THat is the key ENTRY-TEAM. You have obviously forgotten about your support by fire elements and all the other entry teams. Once again, you've tried to weasel your way out of stupid statements by making up silly stories and bending the truth to suit your stories. Must suck to have someone blow them out of the Bayou water.

Merely making a point that there are other size teams besides 2 and 6 man teams. You came in and basically said there are only 2 and 6 man teams and that is not right either. I mean if we are gonna be nit picky.

Again...The beret is a friggin' HAT! Anybody can beat up a hat. As for whether he would get beaten by a ranger or a SF soldier? Who knows? If he did get beaten, it would have a lot less to do with a special secretive fighting art than it would have to do with overwhelming aggressiveness and fitness. .

I agree. The aggressiveness of the Rangers and SF soldiers are their best weapon.

If your spelling ability online is any indication of your intellect, this is another lie.

Well, that works all kinds of ways cause if your quoting ability reflects your intellegence then you must not have graduated the 2nd grade.

Once again you don;t know what you are talking about. Spetsnaz is an acronym based on the Russian words for Special Service Troops. SOMBO/SAMBO/Etc...Is the name of a style of fighting developed by the Soviet Army for their troops. As for Spestnaz being the ultimate killing machines, once again, most people are buying into the hype of the guys trying to sell a product. Is it a solid fighting system? Sure, but not because it has some secret moves that the rest of the world cannot figure out....Have you ever seen video footage of the Russian Army practcing H2H? They have a good fighting system because they practive full-contact, full-speed. The old Soviet army factored in as many os 20% casualties during TRAINING exercises. They didn't care if they screwed up their people in training, because they were expendable.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I said I beleive that was the name of it. Okay I f@#ked up and put down the wrong thing. I was thinking of systema.........my bad I was thinking something with an S.

All this hype about how awesome and ferocious Spetsnaz was is hilarious. I've seen ads that proclaim that even the SEALs and Rangers and SF, etc, were terrified of Spetsnaz. Horsepucky. They may have been respected as worthy adversaries, and given the chance, they would have been shot from an ambush...just like any other enemy soldier.

I never said Spetsnaz was awesome or ferocious. I was just saying I had heard about a system and I did not even use the right word. I never said that any SEALs, Rangers, or SF soldiers were scared of them, as a matter of fact I highly doubt it. You are probably right and they would be shot in an ambush just like any other enemy.

I don't know how you can take your experience in the Army and generalize that and say that everyone that serves should have the exact same experience because it just doesn't work like that. I never learned MT in the Army but I have heard that units stationed over there train it in conjunction with the local military. But, wait..........no.........that can't be right.....if I never learned that then you could not have either!